Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, my claims are pretty
humble, non-perfection and constant transformation is everywhere around us.

2015-09-08 20:46 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Valiente <tinkeringengr@???>:

> Pablo,
> Do you have a defeater that an optimal morality that exists outside of
> time and space should not exist?
>
> Maybe I am in error, but whose to say there can't exist one?
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>
>> Optimal morality, the sharp division of good and evil, the "perpetual
>> motion" of philosophy. There's nothing more ideological than the idea of a
>> perfect ideology. Humans have individual and collective interests that are
>> in permanent conflict, therefore there will never be a single way
>> of empirically classifying belief systems by how good or bad they're. The
>> amount of confirmation bias present in religious people is measured by
>> their proselytism.
>>
>> 2015-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Valiente <tinkeringengr@???>:
>>
>>> Hello Arturo,
>>>
>>> Pardon my interjection, but perhaps you will appreciate my perspective
>>> -- regardless, it is a duty to provide pertinent information to those
>>> around you.
>>>
>>> I applaud the efforts of the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia
>>> community, but I find the problems that beset our global society are
>>> moral and not technological.
>>>
>>> I would make the argument that technology is amoral. We choose how to
>>> apply technology, for great good or great evil. Therefore, the efforts of
>>> humanity should be directed towards the moral behavior of people in systems
>>> of interaction.
>>>
>>> Such a direction yields less utopian outcomes. For each actor is free to
>>> choose in what manner they use their time on this earth. And inasmuch as
>>> limited-humans can define an optimal morality in which we should all
>>> subscribe, it is still up to individuals to accept or reject.
>>>
>>> I sympathize with the champions of technological leverage. Perhaps the
>>> train of thought goes, if only we create systems that subvert the status
>>> quo, we no longer need to participate in the corrupt systems we’ve
>>> inherited. While I very much desire such a thing/place, I still find
>>> reservations in that it doesn’t address the moral issue at hand. So long as
>>> morality is not adequately addressed, any revolution of any kind will be
>>> subject to the incessant decay of human nature. You could suggest
>>> theoretical proofs of safeguards and divisions of power, but given time,
>>> corruption seems to be an innate historical fact. Maybe with more intellect
>>> we will solve such issues?...I am doubtful because I don’t think intellect
>>> is the ‘thing’ that will solve our issues -- even a supremely ignorant
>>> person can share his/her resources while a sophisticated expert may be less
>>> inclined.
>>>
>>> Are humans self-aware to see outside the inherited culture and
>>> scientific understanding of the time to properly define what a corrupt
>>> individual is? I think not. Attempts at incorruptible systems are
>>> admirable, but I consider the human condition to be far too limiting.
>>>
>>> So by what basis or perspective do I claim all (myself included) humans
>>> to be ignorant, uneducated, and supremely limited? I suppose my belief in
>>> higher levels of organization unknown to the world at large i.e. God the
>>> Creator. You could attach the entirety of presumptions when it comes to
>>> such a volatile statement, but I would hope the rigorous intellectual could
>>> entertain the thought without subjecting me to the same ideological box of
>>> others who claim to speak with the authority of God.
>>>
>>> I believe the optimal morality has been defined by Jesus Christ. I
>>> believe that what we see is *not* what we get as history so clearly
>>> displays -- and while some may consider our little speck of dust floating
>>> in the cosmos to be the entirety of human experience, I consider it to be
>>> the training ground for guiding corrupt beings towards incorruption. I
>>> believe knowledge of such things comes from the spiritual dimension, to
>>> any individual humble and willing to submit to the will of God.
>>>
>>> I am here to tell you that the *only true authority of God* has been
>>> restored to this earth in this critical time to prepare for the Second
>>> Coming of Jesus Christ and that God does indeed commune with mankind via
>>> the mechanism of sincere prayer. I believe these things to be a reality.
>>>
>>> Let us not use the logic of men to understand such grand concepts, for
>>> we know from Kurt Gödel the limitations of logical systems. We also
>>> know If we were born in ancient Greece we would reason with the framework
>>> of understanding of the time e.g. the earth is composed of 4 elements:
>>> earth, fire, wind, water. In current times we will reason according to the
>>> modern framework of understanding, still limited nonetheless. Unfortunately
>>> it is an impossibility for you to checksum the integrity of this message.
>>> All I can do is encourage you to ask the appropriate questions and to *seek
>>> knowledge from the spiritual dimension* with the aid of the current
>>> prophet of God (Thomas Monson) and the Book Of Mormon which is a second
>>> witness of Jesus Christ and supports the Bible -- It clarifies many of the
>>> adulterations found therein. Knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye
>>> shall find. Best wishes.
>>>
>>> I apologize if my line of reasoning appears simplistic. I chose to be
>>> concise over verbose.
>>> https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Arturo Filastò <arturo@???>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I apologise in advance if what I talk about may appear to be a little
>>>> be off topic, but by reading this thread and in particular the words of
>>>> Jaromil and Amir I believe this is fertile ground in which to express some
>>>> of my ideas.
>>>>
>>>> The more time goes by the more disillusioned I become about some
>>>> aspects of these so called “movements” close to the
>>>> anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sub-system.
>>>> What actually worries me much more than all of our communications being
>>>> intercepted and who we speak to known to people we would like to conceal
>>>> this from is that once we have The Perfect end-to-end encrypted,
>>>> decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving communication tool that
>>>> everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have anything meaningful to
>>>> say over it.
>>>> What use is crypto and these tools to us if we don’t have an idea or a
>>>> plan as to what we should do with it?
>>>>
>>>> I see this brainwashing being particularly prevalent in the Berlin
>>>> scene and it makes me sick and that is one of the reasons why some years
>>>> ago I fled the city promising to never live here again.
>>>>
>>>> The other aspect is that I sometimes have some serious problems
>>>> understanding what are the motivations and the ideals underpinning the
>>>> behaviours of certain people in this realm and have been stung by this in
>>>> the past. Said differently it doesn’t mean that if two people are
>>>> interested in doing the same thing, they are both doing it for the same
>>>> reason. The reason, in my opinion, is actually the most important thing and
>>>> agree on what to do is just not enough, we should also agree on WHY we do
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> This lack of vision and common shared objective makes me often doubt if
>>>> I should continue focussing on what it is I am focussing on and if I should
>>>> instead move to tackle other more important and relevant problems.
>>>> The times I have stopped a moment to look around and listen to what the
>>>> earth is telling us I realise that surveillance and technological control
>>>> is only just a small piece of this puzzle. If we continue in what we are
>>>> doing, in not too long we will completely fuck ourselves. We have actually
>>>> already fucked ourselves, the club of Rome warned us of this already in
>>>> 1972, but nobody listened to their warning that if nothing were to be done
>>>> there would not be any turning back. We are now too late. We are fucked.
>>>> All we can do is extend our the lifetime of humanity, but what has been
>>>> done is the last century is now IRREVERSIBLE.
>>>>
>>>> Going back to the main topic in question I have a hard time
>>>> understanding why certain people are doing what they do. To make an example
>>>> I don’t understand why Cody Wilson is so much into this idea of making
>>>> guns. What is the vision there? What is the end goal?
>>>> Is it really necessary to fuck up a beautiful technology such as 3d
>>>> printing to make a political statement? In a way it’s as if somebody were
>>>> to publish schemes on how to use enzymes to build a bioweapon, hence
>>>> realising the threat that people proposing more regulation on biohacking
>>>> are using to justify it.
>>>> Groups in the past have overthrown their own government without the
>>>> need of 3d printed guns and let’s be frank you are not going to supply an
>>>> army with plastic guns and expect them to have a chance against the US
>>>> government. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy it.
>>>>
>>>> Again I am sorry if this is a long off-topic rant, but I wanted to get
>>>> these things off my chest and I hope that somebody here can in some way
>>>> relate to it. Some of the people I have spoken to about ideas have not
>>>> given the importance I believe this problem deserves and I believe this is
>>>> caused by the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sect brainwashing that I
>>>> see going on all around me.
>>>>
>>>> ~ Arturo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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