I agree mostly.
Only I think that it will eventually become another form of
goverment, somewhat like what happened with the old West in America
when it transformed itself into democracy. This goes in cycles I
guess.
Another solution is to disperse ourselves in the galaxy... but that
requires technology we don't have now.
El 15/07/15 a las 21:06, Penny Gaff
escribió:
Statism is the culprit, be it corporate or social.
Nation states is a failed ideology and accounts for a minute
fraction of human history....We need to decentralise, localize,
reduce our energy demands and adopt horizontal organization much
like traditional cultures that lived for millennia without
destroying the planet... This is the future, whether we choose
to structure ourselves in this way or it is a consequence of
ecological meltdown... either way it's inevitable. Kick the
stale binary paradigm of left vs right, its over and boring as
fuck.
On Jul 15, 2015 8:37 PM, "Javier" <liberman@???>
wrote:
El 15/07/15 a las 19:52, Amir Taaki escribió:
> And society is not only economics, there is also society,
speech and
> force. That's the mistake of communists.
It is not a mistake, it is a must for them. If there is free
speech,
their system gets down very rapidly because people are free to
advise
others the reasons why the system doesn't work. They must keep
people in
ignorance, that is why they don't allow free speech.
Society is not about economiscs only, but a liberal approach
in every
aspect, including economic, is our natural tendency. If we go
against
that, we invariably become much worse. What politics have ever
worked?
The more liberal politics (not only in economy) we apply, the
better we
become.
>> This is called socialism. It has been tried hundreds
of times, and
>> there are still countries that are very socialist. In
every single of
>> them, without exception, all people become poorer.
The reason why
>> that happens is something that is very much inside
our own nature: if
>> somebody gets your money to give it to others, then
you lose the
>> initiative to innovate, to create new business, and
therefore less
>> employment is created, and everything gets in the
hands of the state.
>> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism
invariably
>> comes. The state must control prices, and must tell
YOU on what to
>> work and how, otherwise resources wouldn't be enough
to cover the
>> minimum necessities of society. This is exactly what
is happening in
>> countless socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia,
and now Greece.
> There are resources in the ground that are a very core
base of wealth
> for many countries that are taken by the government and
used to support
> a system of power and state domination. Nobody is talking
about stealing
> your money, but the earth does belong to all of us, and
we have every
> right to the oil and riches underneath our feet for our
social
> development. It is not about stopping the innovators who
develop new things.
Exploiting natural resources can only be made two ways: by
goverments,
or by corporations. A single person or a small enterprise is
not able to
extract petroleum, for example. A goverment is inefficient and
in the
end always get corrupted. Also, public workers are not
interested in
making a public enterprise to make money, so they are relaxed
in how
they work, resulting in unproductivity, if not corruption.
You are talking about stealing my money when you pay
incredible taxes.
In my country, for example, a single poor employee is paying
about 50%
of his salary in taxes. A rich man pays nearly 70%. The result
is
outstanding: 25% of unemployment, and an incredible amount of
corruption
at every level of society. Half of the society is literally
living from
what the other half tries to produce. Our industry is
uncapable of
compiting outside because producing here costs twice than in
USA. This
is socialism....
>
> Right now this wealth is taken by states and used to
support the state
> system which favours large corporations and welfare. What
if we did away
> with welfare and special favours for large corporations,
and instead
> invested in small enterprise and social cooperatives?
That would be
> better for society.
The states wouldn't favour large corporations and friends if
there were
no money we allow them to invest in those large corporations.
Problem is
that our taxes are badly administered by them to cover things
that
should not be covered by goverments.
Liberalism works because it drastically reduces the amount of
money that
goverments can expense, so they are forced to use it only for
real
necessities, like to paying the police, or the lights in the
street.
>
>>> and drew the
>>> attention of people inside that work for the
benefit of their own
>>> neighbourhoods and themselves... whereby people
work because they enjoy
>>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of
fulfilment rather than blind
>>> unethical work devoid of value simply only
because it pays good.
>> This is not going to happen, ever.
>> 90% of the works, and 90% of your work most probably,
is not about what
>> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to
clean the streets? To
>> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the
factories? Or even
>> not repetitive work but boring work in the office?
>> This is another reason why socialism always ends up
as fascism. As
>> people are not paid properly but the work must be
done, the state must
>> force the people to work on unpleasant works and
force not to protest
>> and accept "the revolution for the good of society".
Just look at China,
>> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book
"Brave New World",
>> it is very similar on what socialist countries are
becoming.
> People work for the people around them all the time. Have
you never
> lived with a group of people, or helped your neighbours?
This is how
> people in most of the world live. They have large
extended families that
> look after each other when they get sick, and everybody
is looking out
> for each other, doing security, making sure their area is
ok. The system
> works because it's an old system, it's the root of how we
used to live
> before civilisation existed. We evolved as small
wandering tribes living
> off the land and hunting. There was no houses and wages.
That hasn't got anything to do with what we were talking.
People take care of each other and that does work. But in the
very
moment that you force anyone to take care of somebody that
they don't
know, things become much worse.
Would you like to take care of a criminal that you don't know
in your
own house?
Socialism is about taking care of people that mostly don't
deserve to
take care of. Corrupt people or ignorant people that only
cares to
receive their free beer. Your intentions were right, to make
society
more equal, but what you get is yourself getting drained off
the money
you hardly earned with your work, so corrupt or lazy people
can live
without working. This makes you and the life of the lazies
worse. It
makes your one bad because most of what you earn is taken. It
makes the
life of the lazy worse because they don't learn to have
responsibility.
It makes the life of the entire society worse because you take
the
efforts of the people that deserve to have resources and waste
them
giving them to the corrupts or the lazies, without your
permission.
Tell me, if you where given $1000 a month for not working
during 2
years, would you take it instead of working? And, if you can
work but
without declaring it, so you can have double your salary at
the cost of
the work of the good people that are not corrupt? That is
exactly what
is happening in my country, and that is exactly what IS
socialism.
Public money in the hands of politics, almost always gets
corrupted.
That is why politics should get the less money possible. That
is why, at
the end, only liberalism works.
And, I must tell you, liberal and anarchist people are very
very happy
about Bitcoin, it means freedom from our goverments.
>
>>> for me this is the root of the problem in this
world. and talk of
>>> welfare and economics doesn't encompass
everything properly.
>> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that
has been always
>> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and
not in the middle
>> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also
democracy. Socialism
>> cannot be democracy for many years because people
always wake up and
>> realise about the lies and populism, so they always
eventually end up as
>> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia,
China, North Korea....
> Liberalism and socialism are dead state ideologies. They
are forms of
> slavery and systems of control.
Not liberalism. Socialism is, and you may be scared to know
how much
socialist we have become. "Brave new world" is nearly here.
_______________________________________________
unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
_______________________________________________
unSYSTEM mailing list:
http://unsystem.net
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
::
Re: [unSYSTEM] Happy (Bank) Holiday…
