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Autor: Javier
Datum:  
To: unsystem
Betreff: Re: [unSYSTEM] Happy (Bank) Holidays - Varoufakian Economics and UBI





    I agree mostly.

    Only I think that it will eventually become another form of
    goverment, somewhat like what happened with the old West in America
    when it transformed itself into democracy. This goes in cycles I
    guess.

    Another solution is to disperse ourselves in the galaxy... but that
    requires technology we don't have now.



El 15/07/15 a las 21:06, Penny Gaff
      escribió:



Statism is the culprit, be it corporate or social.
        Nation states is a failed ideology and accounts for a minute
        fraction of human history....We need to decentralise, localize,
        reduce our energy demands and adopt horizontal organization much
        like traditional cultures that lived for millennia without
        destroying the planet... This is the future, whether we choose
        to structure ourselves in this way or it is a consequence of
        ecological meltdown... either way it's inevitable.  Kick the
        stale binary paradigm of left vs right, its over and boring as
        fuck.

On Jul 15, 2015 8:37 PM, "Javier" <liberman@???>
        wrote:



          El 15/07/15 a las 19:52, Amir Taaki escribió:

          > And society is not only economics, there is also society,
          speech and

          > force. That's the mistake of communists.


          It is not a mistake, it is a must for them. If there is free
          speech,

          their system gets down very rapidly because people are free to
          advise

          others the reasons why the system doesn't work. They must keep
          people in

          ignorance, that is why they don't allow free speech.

          Society is not about economiscs only, but a liberal approach
          in every

          aspect, including economic, is our natural tendency. If we go
          against

          that, we invariably become much worse. What politics have ever
          worked?

          The more liberal politics (not only in economy) we apply, the
          better we

          become.


          >> This is called socialism. It has been tried hundreds
          of times, and

          >> there are still countries that are very socialist. In
          every single of

          >> them, without exception, all people become poorer.
          The reason why

          >> that happens is something that is very much inside
          our own nature: if

          >> somebody gets your money to give it to others, then
          you lose the

          >> initiative to innovate, to create new business, and
          therefore less

          >> employment is created, and everything gets in the
          hands of the state.

          >> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism
          invariably

          >> comes. The state must control prices, and must tell
          YOU on what to

          >> work and how, otherwise resources wouldn't be enough
          to cover the

          >> minimum necessities of society. This is exactly what
          is happening in

          >> countless socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia,
          and now Greece.

          > There are resources in the ground that are a very core
          base of wealth

          > for many countries that are taken by the government and
          used to support

          > a system of power and state domination. Nobody is talking
          about stealing

          > your money, but the earth does belong to all of us, and
          we have every

          > right to the oil and riches underneath our feet for our
          social

          > development. It is not about stopping the innovators who
          develop new things.


          Exploiting natural resources can only be made two ways: by
          goverments,

          or by corporations. A single person or a small enterprise is
          not able to

          extract petroleum, for example. A goverment is inefficient and
          in the

          end always get corrupted. Also, public workers are not
          interested in

          making a public enterprise to make money, so they are relaxed
          in how

          they work, resulting in unproductivity, if not corruption.

          You are talking about stealing my money when you pay
          incredible taxes.

          In my country, for example, a single poor employee is paying
          about 50%

          of his salary in taxes. A rich man pays nearly 70%. The result
          is

          outstanding: 25% of unemployment, and an incredible amount of
          corruption

          at every level of society. Half of the society is literally
          living from

          what the other half tries to produce. Our industry is
          uncapable of

          compiting outside because producing here costs twice than in
          USA. This

          is socialism....


          >

          > Right now this wealth is taken by states and used to
          support the state

          > system which favours large corporations and welfare. What
          if we did away

          > with welfare and special favours for large corporations,
          and instead

          > invested in small enterprise and social cooperatives?
          That would be

          > better for society.


          The states wouldn't favour large corporations and friends if
          there were

          no money we allow them to invest in those large corporations.
          Problem is

          that our taxes are badly administered by them to cover things
          that

          should not be covered by goverments.

          Liberalism works because it drastically reduces the amount of
          money that

          goverments can expense, so they are forced to use it only for
          real

          necessities, like to paying the police, or the lights in the
          street.


          >

          >>>  and drew the

          >>> attention of people inside that work for the
          benefit of their own

          >>> neighbourhoods and themselves... whereby people
          work because they enjoy

          >>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of
          fulfilment rather than blind

          >>> unethical work devoid of value simply only
          because it pays good.

          >> This is not going to happen, ever.

          >> 90% of the works, and 90% of your work most probably,
          is not about what

          >> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to
          clean the streets? To

          >> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the
          factories? Or even

          >> not repetitive work but boring work in the office?

          >> This is another reason why socialism always ends up
          as fascism. As

          >> people are not paid properly but the work must be
          done, the state must

          >> force the people to work on unpleasant works and
          force not to protest

          >> and accept "the revolution for the good of society".
          Just look at China,

          >> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book
          "Brave New World",

          >> it is very similar on what socialist countries are
          becoming.

          > People work for the people around them all the time. Have
          you never

          > lived with a group of people, or helped your neighbours?
          This is how

          > people in most of the world live. They have large
          extended families that

          > look after each other when they get sick, and everybody
          is looking out

          > for each other, doing security, making sure their area is
          ok. The system

          > works because it's an old system, it's the root of how we
          used to live

          > before civilisation existed. We evolved as small
          wandering tribes living

          > off the land and hunting. There was no houses and wages.


          That hasn't got anything to do with what we were talking.

          People take care of each other and that does work. But in the
          very

          moment that you force anyone to take care of somebody that
          they don't

          know, things become much worse.

          Would you like to take care of a criminal that you don't know
          in your

          own house?

          Socialism is about taking care of people that mostly don't
          deserve to

          take care of. Corrupt people or ignorant people that only
          cares to

          receive their free beer. Your intentions were right, to make
          society

          more equal, but what you get is yourself getting drained off
          the money

          you hardly earned with your work, so corrupt or lazy people
          can live

          without working. This makes you and the life of the lazies
          worse. It

          makes your one bad because most of what you earn is taken. It
          makes the

          life of the lazy worse because they don't learn to have
          responsibility.

          It makes the life of the entire society worse because you take
          the

          efforts of the people that deserve to have resources and waste
          them

          giving them to the corrupts or the lazies, without your
          permission.

          Tell me, if you where given $1000 a month for not working
          during 2

          years, would you take it instead of working? And, if you can
          work but

          without declaring it, so you can have double your salary at
          the cost of

          the work of the good people that are not corrupt? That is
          exactly what

          is happening in my country, and that is exactly what IS
          socialism.

          Public money in the hands of politics, almost always gets
          corrupted.

          That is why politics should get the less money possible. That
          is why, at

          the end, only liberalism works.

          And, I must tell you, liberal and anarchist people are very
          very happy

          about Bitcoin, it means freedom from our goverments.



          >

          >>> for me this is the root of the problem in this
          world. and talk of

          >>> welfare and economics doesn't encompass
          everything properly.

          >> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that
          has been always

          >> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and
          not in the middle

          >> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also
          democracy. Socialism

          >> cannot be democracy for many years because people
          always wake up and

          >> realise about the lies and populism, so they always
          eventually end up as

          >> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia,
          China, North Korea....

          > Liberalism and socialism are dead state ideologies. They
          are forms of

          > slavery and systems of control.


          Not liberalism. Socialism is, and you may be scared to know
          how much

          socialist we have become. "Brave new world" is nearly here.


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