Javier:
>
> Hello, I don't usually participate in the list, but as someone that is
> affected by these kind of politics, I feel in the obligation of answering.
>
> El 11/07/15 a las 21:53, Amir Taaki escribió:
>> my thoughts on this are that we should first get away from the kind of
>> isolated thinking, instead understanding the totally of the system we
>> live in which possesses & manages capital for the benefit of a
>> capitalist class.
>
> I think you are wrong on this. Who is the capitalist class? There are
> not such things as capitalist and no capitalist class. We are all either
> capitalist or not.
> In the very moment there are private business ruling most of the
> economy, we are all capitalist.

I didn't say the capitalist class, I said a capitalist class. Fact is
that the western democratic capitalism is a state system that exists and
very much serves the interests of a specific group of people.

And society is not only economics, there is also society, speech and
force. That's the mistake of communists.

>> secondly that we have to embrace the roughness, that this conveyor belt
>> system of neutrality is a pipe dream that we want to tear down.
>>
>> instead what if we wielded capital and didn't use it to support a
>> capitalist class, but instead invested into social enterprises or
>> cooperatives that provided their own form of welfare,
>
> This is called socialism.
> It has been tried hundreds of times, and there are still countries that
> are very socialist. In every single of them, without exception, all
> people become poorer.
> The reason why that happens is something that is very much inside our
> own nature: if somebody gets your money to give it to others, then you
> lose the initiative to innovate, to create new business, and therefore
> less employment is created, and everything gets in the hands of the state.
> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism invariably comes.
> The state must control prices, and must tell YOU on what to work and
> how, otherwise resources wouldn't be enough to cover the minimum
> necessities of society. This is exactly what is happening in countless
> socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia, and now Greece.

There are resources in the ground that are a very core base of wealth
for many countries that are taken by the government and used to support
a system of power and state domination. Nobody is talking about stealing
your money, but the earth does belong to all of us, and we have every
right to the oil and riches underneath our feet for our social
development. It is not about stopping the innovators who develop new things.

Right now this wealth is taken by states and used to support the state
system which favours large corporations and welfare. What if we did away
with welfare and special favours for large corporations, and instead
invested in small enterprise and social cooperatives? That would be
better for society.

>> and drew the
>> attention of people inside that work for the benefit of their own
>> neighbourhoods and themselves... whereby people work because they enjoy
>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of fulfilment rather than blind
>> unethical work devoid of value simply only because it pays good.
>
> This is not going to happen, ever.
> 90% of the works, and 90% of your work most probably, is not about what
> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to clean the streets? To
> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the factories? Or even
> not repetitive work but boring work in the office?
> This is another reason why socialism always ends up as fascism. As
> people are not paid properly but the work must be done, the state must
> force the people to work on unpleasant works and force not to protest
> and accept "the revolution for the good of society". Just look at China,
> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book "Brave New World",
> it is very similar on what socialist countries are becoming.

People work for the people around them all the time. Have you never
lived with a group of people, or helped your neighbours? This is how
people in most of the world live. They have large extended families that
look after each other when they get sick, and everybody is looking out
for each other, doing security, making sure their area is ok. The system
works because it's an old system, it's the root of how we used to live
before civilisation existed. We evolved as small wandering tribes living
off the land and hunting. There was no houses and wages.

>> for me this is the root of the problem in this world. and talk of
>> welfare and economics doesn't encompass everything properly.
>
> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that has been always
> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and not in the middle
> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also democracy. Socialism
> cannot be democracy for many years because people always wake up and
> realise about the lies and populism, so they always eventually end up as
> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China, North Korea....

Liberalism and socialism are dead state ideologies. They are forms of
slavery and systems of control.

>> our societies are devoid of politics, and we need to inject it heavily
>> into society like what is happening in rojava.
>
> Be careful about these not-enough weighted thoughts. They have ruined
> many many countries already.
>
>
>
>
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