On 05/05/15 21:41, Noel Torres wrote:
>
> Anto <aryanto@???> escribió:
>
>> On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote:
>>>
>>> As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your
>>> distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed
>>> to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place
>>> for such an anti-freedom POV.
>>>
>>
>> Are you for real?
>>
>> Do you understand the impact on what you wrote?
>
> Of course yes. We are not a bunch of anti-systemd fanboys, but a set
> of system administrators that want to be free not to have systemd
> imposed on us by what was our distribution of choice for its technical
> soundness and reliability: Debian.
>>
>> How much efforts will that be to support systemd *without* any
>> locked-in? I believe this is what you meant, because Devuan will be
>
> That of the required effort is a completely different issue to that of
> freedom!
>> exactly the same as Debian if the support for systemd would also
>> force the locked-in of a lot of packages. And unless the number of
>> Devuan developers will be as many as Debian developers, I think you
>> are just dreaming.
>
> Yes, dreaming, but also setting a line on the sand: rejecting systemd
> on Devuan for reason A is good, and for reason B is bad. The line is
> on the reasons, not on systemd itself.
>>
>> I can write this now that you can be sure I will be the first one to
>> leave Devuan as soon as it starts to support systemd. This encourages
>> me to start learning about building a deb repository and forking,
>> because as soon as Devuan starts to support systemd, it will be much
>> easier for me to fork Devuan.
>
> Feel free to leave, fork, contribute or just argue with me, but even
> if you leave, I'll support your freedom.
>>
>> It is quite sad for me to write this as Devuan does not even exist
>> yet. But I can see it now that the future of Devuan is not really
>> promising for me. I will wait and still be around until that day comes.
>
> Regards
>
> Noel
> er Envite

Hello Noel,

In term of effort vs freedom of choice, I think you have to be realistic.

If systemd was not designed to force massive dependencies, I would not
hate it this much. I would not even look for alternative distros if I
could easily uninstall it or uninstall any of its components in Debian.
It works like that by design which makes it hard for people to have a
distro that is free of systemd, otherwise Devuan would have been
released before January 2015. The efforts that have been put into Devuan
development are already quite a lot, just to free it up from systemd.

I am quite sure that the efforts to make systemd and its components
easily uninstallable in Devuan and maintain it, will be much more than
the current ones. All of that just for the sake of providing choice to
the users who want to have systemd in Devuan. The number of those users
is questionable. There will probably be very few of them (if not *none*)
by the time Devuan starts to support systemd, as most of them will
probably choose more mature distros with systemd. And Devuan with
uninstallable systemd will always be on the side line, due to its
radical approach compare to other systemd based distros.

Cheers,

Anto