Unlurking here for a moment...
> Am 05.05.2015 um 16:05 schrieb David Hare <davidahare@???>:
>
>
>> The decision in Debian to default the init system to systemd
>> is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place.
>
> Not exactly.. The reason is Debian's decision to *require* systemd with the only alternative a crippled OS. What is "default" matters less..

I disagree w/r to the 'crippled OS' part: Depending on the use-case, you *can* have a fully working Debian 8 system that does not require systemd. For instance if you run a headless mail or webserver.
On the server systems I run using Jessie, everything runs find and runs fine using sysvinit as the init system.
Granted, you still need to run udev and have libsystemd installed, but that is a different matter.

At any rate, Devuan's distinguishing factor, as Noel has correctly pointed out, is that freedom of choice is promoted. So that people can continue to mix and match components as they see fit. Therefore, (at least from my POV), the argument that systemd is not a 'good' piece of software should go something like this:

A) systemd is (arguably) aiming to be(come) a sort of middleware to sit between kernel and userspace.
B) As such, it aims at making itself an indispensable, integral part of GNU/Linux as a complete OS.
C) Once it has become an integral part, people will no longer have a choice about using it or not.
D) Devuan promotes freedom of choice and tries to maximize freedom of choice w/r to all pieces of software.
E) Devuan regards software that tries to eleminate or minimize freedom of choice as 'bad'.
F) Since systemd matches these criteria, it is a 'bad' piece of software.


This had been very succinctly described by Christopher Barry (https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 <https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459>)

"For me, Linux had already won that war way back in 1994 when I started
using it. It did it without firing a shot or attempting to be just like
the other OSes. It won it it by not giving a flying fuck about market
share. It won it by being exactly NOT them. It won it by being simple
and understandable and configurable to be exactly how *I* wanted it to
be. It won it by being a collection of simple modular components that
could be plugged together at will to do real work. It won it by
adhering to a deeply considered philosophy of the user being in the
drivers seat, and being free to run the things she wanted to, without
layers and layers of frameworks wrapping their tendrils into all manor
of stuff they should not be touching. It won it without the various
'CrapKit' shit that's begun to insinuate itself into the heart of my
system of late. It won it without being overly complex and unknowable.
That kind of opacity was was the core of Windows and Mac, and that's
exactly what I despise about them, and exactly why I chose to use Linux
in the first goddamn place. systemd is embracing *all* that I hate about
Windows and Mac, and doing so in the name of 'modernity' and
'simplifying' a developer's job."





Best,

Martin