It has been suggested several times now that the reason Debian developers
supposedly suffer a disconnect from Debian users is because there are
dedicated -dev and -user mailing lists, where -dev is moderated to be
development topics only. It has been suggested that because developers can
simply ignore -user, they get disconnected from their needs.

I don't think either of these conclusions are true. First, even if a DD
isn't subscribed to any public Debian mailing list, (s)he still receives
bug reports, feature requests, and direct emails from users. Moreover, the
first two are public record. Wanting to ignore unrelated conversations is
not a sign of disconnect.

Second, disconnect can happen regardless of the ML structure--anyone can
whitelist/blacklist email addresses belonging to people they don't want to
listen to, and anyone can simply ignore an email message.

Third, the biggest sources of toxicity in user/developer relations in
Debian that I have seen are narcissism and the lack of empathy. I have
seen prominent developers dismissing valid, constructive criticism with "if
you don't like it, fork it--it's open source after all" and "Linux is not
about choice." I have also seen long-time Debian users bad-mouthing
developers for not going through great lengths to support their pet
use-case--nevermind the fact that the use-case applies only to them and is
greatly outside the scope of the program.

The ML structure will neither fix nor prevent bad behavior. However, it
can mitigate its effect on the project. For this reason, I support
Hendrik's idea of having a -tech mailing list for technical topics only
(but that both users and developers can join). I also support having a few
guidelines on more specialized mailing lists (should they be created) that
describe what behavior is appropriate on them, as well as having a
publicly-visible process in place for how to deal with people who abuse
their list membership.

Thanks,
-Jude

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers <
devuan-list1@???> wrote:

>
> We do not need another list.
>>
>
> That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons,
> like others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of
> "because I said so"
>
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