On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 10:20 +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote:


> I am neither the first, nor will I be the last, to ask for a -dev
list.
>
>> *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and
>> build something different that won't end up in an isolated technical
>> committee in their ivory towers, and bullies.
>
> I don't see anything mentioned about technical committees or ivory
> towers. Bullies, seriously?

That's what happened with debian :(

> You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and
> from the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people
> running the project.

As far as I understood he is one of the VUAs, yes.

> Frankly, I am really not all that happy with your attitude, and as you
> represent dyne.org, I have no option but to assume this to be
> representative of the project leads in general. So far, quite a few
> people with: or interesting; or no-noise; or informative opinions;
> have left the list because of the lack of a -dev list, or a basic "we
> don't like your type around here" sentiment that lead them to think
> "fuck it, this is a waste of time".
>

I don't think people having serious interest in devuan have left, sorry.

> You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of
> time" camp.

In what way would it be a waste of time? As I see it there are
advantages and disadvantages with one mailing list:
+ doesn't separate users from developers, as in the debian case.
- the signal to noise level can be low at times, but subject/user
filtering in you mail clients can fix that.

As voiced by other people before, use one list until there is a real
need for a -dev list (at the risk of creating a debian situation).
However, being subscribed to both debian-devel and debian-user for a
long time I've soon unsubscribed from debian-user due to the incredibly
high noise level of irrelevant postings or help requests :( As there is
a large need for help from unexperienced people perhaps a devuan-help
list is a better complement to the devuan list (and renaming dng to
devuan-dev)?

> Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or GTFO"
> attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails
> about list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan.

I think that a forum could be good for people who wants to discuss
various issues, as that would (hopefully) reduce the noise level on the
mailing list. Personally I've never been fond of forums, they are hard
to extract useful information from, and you have to use a web browser to
access the postings (unless forwarded to a mailing list, please don't).
On the other hand, IRC with #debianfork and #devuan fills about the same
need, so?

> I'll be decommissioning the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go
> get some work done.

Please don't, that would be very unfortunate.

Just my 5c.