> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:reisenweber@web.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:33 PM
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update and milestone
>
> On Tue 24 March 2015 22:17:20 Steve Litt wrote:
> > This systemd debacle increased by an order of magnitude the Linux
> > users who understand the underpinnings of the system and are prepared
> > to take control.

[T.J. ] I don't really think so, honestly. I think that those who have
would have been motivated for other reasons.
>
> 2015-02-18T14:43:35.751937+01:00 localhost kernel: [1566879.692218]
> systemd[1]: segfault at 1fc6ac0 ip 0000000001fc6ac0 sp 00007fff9f2ab858
> error 15

[T.J. ] It should be important to note that a segfault can be caused by any
number of things, that can be unrelated to systemd itself. I do grant you
that systemd has its share of undesirables, but it could be exposing a flaw
in the lower libraries as well. A lot of the time, the glibc library is
also to blame. If there was ever any piece of software on Linux that needs
a serious overhaul, beyond X11, it is the libc and GCC suite. That is why
a lot of people are eying over Clang very seriously. For some, it does have
to do with the GPL, but for many it has to do with the fact that GCC is a
mess. One of the previous maintainers, Ulrich Drepper, was famous for
ignoring bug reports.

It has been my experience (having used just about every major version of
Linux at one time or another since the 90s) that Linux versions get pushed
out the door, regardless of how many critical bugs are still unfixed. The
usual attitude is that "we will fix them later", or they wait for upstream
to do so. Some versions are better than others. I must admit that Debian
seems to do a good job at squashing bugs.

>
> on my desktop system, with all the collateral damage like var/log/messages
> empty after logrotate etc, and NO way to debug. *No more* 'customize and
> tweak everything I like' :-/

[T.J. ] To be fair, there is always a way to be debug, but like most things
these days, systemd is designed to be "hands off" unless you are a C
programmer. Which makes it very attractive to people who just want to build
a distribution and not get into the guts. That also means that it gets in
the way of the people who do want to get into the details. As for your
comments about logging, I agree - systemd should not be logging by default.
On Debian, it doesn't actually - even if it is installed. Most other
distributions have systemd logging on be default though. It is also true
that you can disable systemd logging should you wish it.
>
> Now devuan is my only hope for the future of linux - alternative: move to
> another unix. When I wanted an OS like systemd cabal and RH is planning
for,
> I would have chosen the original from beginning: Redmond M$ lock-in for
> sheep.

[T.J. ] I think you are being just a bit overdramatic. I do agree that the
number of binary distributions that do not use systemd are shrinking to
zero, but then the binary distributions were created in the first place for
people who do not care about the internal guts of the system. You can
always build Linux yourself to exclude systemd or you can even try Gentoo if
you are so inclined.

T.J.