On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:53:02 +0000
Nuno Magalhães <nunomagalhaes@???> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:24 AM, T.J. Duchene <t.j.duchene@???>
> wrote:
> > What I said was at some point Devuan will probably have to support
> > systemd's API, in order to support upstream projects that actually
> > require systemd.
>
> Why?
>
> Biggest example: GNOME (now) requires systemd. I don't want systemd,
> so, i won't use GNOME. If i want either, i'll use Debian, not Devuan.

I agree 100% with Nuno.

>
> I don't understand this sheeple need to do what everybody else does,
> indded it's redmondesque.

I agree with this *more* than Nuno does.

> If you want that, go use another distro,
> there are hundreds out there who are doing what everybody else does.
> Use Ubuntu, it's fashionable and Debian-like.

I agree 100% with Nuno.

>
> This particular distro, at least it seems to me, was born to *avoid*
> lock-ins like systemd.

I agree 100% with Nuno.


> Or stuff that depends on lock-ins like systemd,
> which makes it [the dependant stuff] locked-in as well. Call it
> another kind of GPL thing if you will, systemd is becoming a UNIX™.
> Back then, GNU came along and created free versions (minus the
> kernel); nowaways, there's systemd™, and here's Devuan.
>
> So far the most sensible approach of established distros, to me, has
> been that of gentoo (which i'm currently exploring): they use OpenRC
> by default, but you're free to use systemd _if_ you want[1]. *That* is
> freedom of choice and i sincerely hope they won't succumb to the
> pressure. Since Debian didn't go that way (a sad surprise considering
> what i thought Debian was), here's Devuan.
> (I'm not considering Slackware at the moment 'cos Mr Volkerding hasn't
> been specific, he's wait-and-see-ing apparently.)

The one fly in the *too solution is that *too has completely different
knowledge and time requirements for installation and maintenance than
do easy installers like Devuan, Debian, Manjaro, Fedora, Centos,
OpenSuSE, OpenBSD and the like. Quite apart from Mr. Volkerding's
ultimate solution, Slack also has very different knowledge and time
requirements.

If you want an easy-installing free OS, from what I've seen, you're
pretty much restricted to Devuan, Manjaro-OpenRC, OpenBSD, FreeBSD,
PC-BSD, or laying down something like Epoch to solder-bridge around
systemd, and then doing a lot of fancy footwork to undo systemd's
application level damage.


>
> Devuan's not at established distro and the purpose has been, from the
> beginning, to avoid lock-ins.

Yes!

> You're free to package upstart or some
> other non-intrusive init system for Devuan, i'm sure the VUA won't
> mind, and then there'll be the choice between two "unlocked" init
> systems (implicitly calling systemd an init system is an
> understatement). But i don't see systemd in the Devuan universe -
> that'll completely defeat the purpose.

Yes! This is what I was trying to say to T.J.

SteveT

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