Am 27.02.2015 21:18 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
> With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called
> for
> here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire
> systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago.

I wouldn't call "personality clash" the case of a user having specific
problems
with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think?
Anyway,
I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking
DeBian
itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion,
which
is welcome and a pleasure to read.

> With no offense or judgment intended, I'd rather not see Debian's mud
> at
> our door. The reason we left was to get away from it. Devuan does not
> need
> to justify its own existence.

"Debian's mud at our door"? "The reason we left"? With all due respect
and no
judgement intended, your sudden use of the royal "We" on this list is
quite
surprising, especially since about three weeks ago you wrote the
following
comments, which strikingly resemble to what can be read on Poettering's
blog,
which is being copy&pasted around the web by many well-disguised
"Yes-Men":

>> Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i
>> think
>> some of it is justified, but consider this... Rather than joining the
>> project and steering it in another direction, or creating patches to
>> fix
>> what you do not like, everyone is just standing about complaining.
>> (...)
>> The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to
>> stay
>> (...)
>> There is no escaping this fact of life. Linux as an OS is developed in
>> a
>> hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such wide
>> adoption is that it simplifies their work.

Quite frankly, it sounds like you're actually trying to *pose* as a
Devuan
supporter, which you seem not to be.

> The reality is that Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the
> number
> of humps chosen by committee. For all of that, it is rather endearing
> -
> because you can make of it what you will. No one can charge you in
> court
> or judge less of your character for doing your own thing.

This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux
FUD
marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized
monster-penguin.
However, let's paraphrase it: of course "Linux" is free software
released under
the GPL and similar licenses, therefore "you can make of it what you
will"...
unless "somebody" manages to nail it down through some subtle and nasty
agenda
which makes said licenses useless.

> I've had Debian, RedHat, and just about every major distribution grace
> my system at some point. With every single one of them, without
> exception, has had issues of some kind or another. Some of which were
> major showstoppers. Some didn't even boot, others were so poorly
> assembled that you'd think the packagers were drunken monkeys.

Unfortunately I cannot brag such a catastrophic experience with Linux
distributions myself, but that's probably my fault. Anyway, your comment
sounds like yet another iteration of the "Linux is broken" mantra, hence
I
encourage you to jump on (or return to) the Grand Unifying Init System
bandwagon.

> All of this started long before systemd was ever created, and will
> certainly be around long after systemd is forgotten.

Yeah. However, this is (again) just another way to say "That's the way
it
is", or "So goes the world", while dismissing specific problems by
pushing
them inside the foggy and much undetermined concept of "life".

Philip