Sounds like some people might be defending Ross because “the other side is worse”. That might be true, but it’s also kind of like voting for one party because you hate the other. It’s disjunct reasoning, which is a logical fallacy in a world with so many possibilities. Personally, I don’t believe anything the feds say, so I suspect Ross never said those things. None of us really knows.

As far as fighting or building, I like this quote


“In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete.”






> On Feb 6, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Adam B. Levine <adam@???> wrote:
>
> Cody, you're all about proving the illusion of ability that the state presents is nonsense and the promises they make are unrepairable.
>
> My gig is creating things, helping people think about new possibilities that ignore the rather larger and intractable problems that face us. Your solution is.... What, keep talking? What good is it if you don't build better platforms <https://github.com/tokenly/Tokenly-Tools-and-Services> that ignore the current paradigm because it is irrelevant to their functioning? It sounds like you want to go to war and I just don't get the urge to play david to goliath when our whole advantage is decentralization and the ability to move much faster than the centralized opposition.
>
> We all make our choices of how to go about causing change, I feel pretty good about mine - Did you have any complaints about my contribution besides not seeing the reason to support Ross given they're not arguing he's innocent?
>
>
>
> Adam B. Levine
> Editor-in-Chief
> Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
> I'm hopeful about a further controversy on appeal about how the Feds collected his server info, and if the FBI's account is impeachable. This is interesting and potentially fruitful, Constitutionally. The surveillance apparatus abridging the 4A is part of what animates the support.
>
> But to your point, all these "workarounds" ultimately provide you with your own convenient evasion. Our fight requires bad subjects, and the revaluation of values. If you haven't had to walk into the ethical twilight yet, you aren't trying, Adam.
>
> Ross had the stones to travel as far out as any of us, and to go beyond good and evil. I for one am not celebrating him as a martyr. I'm celebrating him for *doing* and acting against the moral terror and world hegemon.
>
> On Feb 6, 2015 2:44 PM, "Adam B. Levine" <adam@??? <mailto:adam@letstalkbitcoin.com>> wrote:
> I don't really consider one murder justifying another murder. Just because people who do wrong go unpunished doesn't mean we should celebrate people who do wrong but are caught and punished. From the evidence I've seen, Ross was someone who did wrong, knew what he was doing and justified it to himself because he morally disagrees with the drug war, although that doesnt have much to do with his willingness to kill. He might have felt justified, he might have been ideologically aligned with yours or my beliefs but he was caught, is guilty and knew the risk going into it. He chose to fight a battle he could not win in a court that wouldn't have let him win even if he didn't do it, which the evidence suggests he did.
>
> If anything Ross is an example of why disruptive centralized solutions to political problems won't work. But by all means, lets spend more time with ross hero worship and waxing poetic about how crappy, hypocritical and ineffectual the government is and not acknowledging that the guy makes a pretty lousy hero or martyr. We know the current system sucks. It's really really obvious. That's why we're building infrastructure to work around the problem and connect people directly to conduct commerce that wouldn't otherwise happen. That's the point.
>
> People who "Believe" in ulbricht, what exactly do you believe in? Are you totally focused on the "It's a drug market but since its not on the corner it's not violent" feature? I'm really trying to understand the appeal of this guy after the lack of defense.
>
> Adam B. Levine
> Editor-in-Chief
> Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Kevin Gallagher <kevin@??? <mailto:kevin@freedom.press>> wrote:
> And who ordered the murder of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki?
>
>
> On 02/06/2015 12:08 PM, Devon Read wrote:
>> Brian
>>
>> If you're arguing morality, how about considering the whole thing from a different perspective. First, let's assume we can forgive the US government for its enormously hypocritical behavior in regard to the war on drugs (i.e., the significant amount of evidence that the CIA imports and financially supports drug producers, the positive impact on opium production that our invasion of Afghanistan had (http://static.wixstatic.com/media/99909e_2a76c5021bf544879e238e6c6afe3236.png_srz_828_480_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz <http://static.wixstatic.com/media/99909e_2a76c5021bf544879e238e6c6afe3236.png_srz_828_480_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz>), etc), or the fact that it has really only lead to increased police budgets and the highest rate of imprisonment in the world (where many low cost "made in america" products are made by the prisoners, btw, at substantially below minimum wage rates). The reality is that the trade of "drugs" has been a part of our history as far back as one can look. Just like it did to the alcohol trade, the abolition of the drug trade is what made it violent. What the Silk Road accomplished was to make it a safe and non-violent process again - whether Ross is DPR or not, and whether or not DPR ever allegedly ordered the killing of a handful of people to protect a system that was able to conduct such a large amount of trade without violence before that point (and with impression of protection from the threat of state-imposed violence), would you not agree that the Silk Road worked as a much more civilized mechanism than the current status quo? Wasn't it working in a far more "moral" way than alternatives?
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Brian Hoffman <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>> Perhaps.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 2:29 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>> My argument is you've internalized your masters and their morality.
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2015 1:25 PM, "Brian Hoffman" <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>> So your argument is drug kingpins gonna kingpin so it's all fair in love and war? I've tried hard to follow your line of argument, but I will claim ignorance here and move on.
>>>
>>> On another note, I thought that he wrote the hells angel comment in his personal journal. They argued that wasn't him?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey buddy, you're in the wrong line of work if you can't stomach a militant ethics or name your adversary.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, bourgouis legality and its attendant universals are keeping you in check. You, with openbazaar no less.
>>>>
>>>> I expect you'll be singing on the stand, yes?
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2015 1:09 PM, "Brian Hoffman" <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>>> So conspiracy to attempt murder is ethical now? I think I've heard everything. I'll buy that this trial wasn't about him trying to murder anyone, but that's a fucking weak argument. I like how you casually place murder in that "protection" bucket.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not only that, it is ethical to protect your suppliers and customers from ruin when another party threatens them with state violence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross' takedown was also necessary because of his ethics.
>>>>>

>>>>> On Feb 6, 2015 12:35 PM, "Adam B. Levine" <adam@??? <mailto:adam@letstalkbitcoin.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I think the point was not that he committed murder or was accused of committing murder, it was that the defense did not deny that his intention                                                     was for someone to be murdered and he took steps that he thought would lead to that outcome.   

>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think it is an acceptable behavior to pay someone to murder someone else because you think they threaten your illegal business?
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam B. Levine
>>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>>> Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Julia Tourianski <juliatourianski@??? <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Drug trafficking, conspiracy to drug trafficking, money laundering conspiracy to hack, selling fraudulent identification... and variations of what I already mentioned. The murder thing was all bullshit and he was never indicted for it. the fact that people are so hung up on it even in this mailing list shows how effective of a slander strategy it was
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 6, 2015 9:36 AM, "Alicia Cruz" <accruz44@??? <mailto:accruz44@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Ross didn't actually get charged with murder I thought? And was convicted on drug trafficking, hacking, and money laundering. Julia, do you have a full list of what the conviction was?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Julia Tourianski <juliatourianski@??? <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> He was confident because "I have an answer for everything"
>>>>>
>>>>> unfortunately the defense was not allowed to present half of their evidence , and half of their witnesses were not allowed to speak either.
>>>>>
>>>>> His fait was sealed before it even started.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2015 10:17 PM, "Juan S. Galt" <eljuangalt@??? <mailto:eljuangalt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I've yet to look a the evidence presented at the trial, havn't had time. However, the CIA has admitted to false flag operations and Its hard to argue that it is above them to do such a thing in this case, particularly given how the Silk Road arguable threatens the status quo in regards to the war on drugs.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, without looking at the evidence, my loyalty is with Ross. However, if those threats were indeed made, and Ross made them, than yes, that alone would deserve moral judgment and appropriate social action.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Mathias Groennebaek <mathias@??? <mailto:mathias@cloudtech.dk>> wrote:
>>>>> Have I missed something, or did the defence not really provide any particular proof of Ross not having ordered the hit on several people? And if so, why is it so hard to understand why he has been convicted, when there is an ample amount of proof that he did indeed do so?
>>>>> From a moral perspective, anyone involved in a murder should in my honest opinion be convicted of their crimes. The silk road trial and a discussion in general about drugs and their legality is a separate matter entirely to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Juan S. Galt <eljuangalt@??? <mailto:eljuangalt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Anyone with enough mind to think about it for a few minutes knows this trial has been rigged from the start.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It is important to note that since there is no victim to Ross’s alleged illegal activity this court case is not founded on contract law. And given the 500+ variations of cannabis that was traded on the Silk Road, it’s hard to say it was even anti-democratic with the plant being one of the most popular recreational and medicinal drugs, which after decades of controversy remains illegal."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://cointelegraph.com/news/113393/dread-pirate-roberts-imprisonment-vs-innovation-op-ed <http://cointelegraph.com/news/113393/dread-pirate-roberts-imprisonment-vs-innovation-op-ed>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Brian Hoffman <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>>>> Touche
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What's reddit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 7:22 PM, "Brian Hoffman" <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> Meh it's just fun times. Don't tell me all the Reddit babble has you rattled. I'm just messing with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Brian, if I don't know better I'd say you were being snide.
>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 7:10 PM, "Brian Hoffman" <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> And he endorses you for Bitcoin Foundation board as a result of your support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've said before, I support him because of what he is accused. Not despite it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 7:02 PM, "Adam B. Levine" <adam@??? <mailto:adam@letstalkbitcoin.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Does whether or not Ross did what he is being accused of and tried for, matter?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adam B. Levine
>>>>>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>>>>>> Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Julia Tourianski <juliatourianski@??? <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I watched his father breakdown on the phone with Ross's sister and my world has been frozen since that moment. I cannot imagine their pain even after witnessing it. His mother is staying very strong, it's not over for her.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the jury members was smiling when they announced it. I'm so disappointed in the basic nature of the common, the "Justice" machine did its job today. ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 5:42 PM, "Cody R Wilson" <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Take heart. We knew this part was likely. We find the real battle in challenging the US' acquisition of the server info.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can't argue the facts, but we can put them to proof on the law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 4:40 PM, "Alicia Cruz" <accruz44@??? <mailto:accruz44@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> :(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Matt <millsdmb@??? <mailto:millsdmb@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Guilty on all charges :(:(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 23, 2015 12:49 PM, "Andrew Miller" <amiller@??? <mailto:amiller@cs.umd.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > um by the way, did anyone notice what is happening in Puerto Rico with
>>>>>>>> > the Bitcoin Foundation and that ZeroCash project, which did present at
>>>>>>>> > the prior FinCrypto, is noticeably ABSENT from this upcoming one? See:
>>>>>>>> > http://fc15.ifca.ai <http://fc15.ifca.ai/> (yeah, interesting read)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think your point is that because there's no research paper about
>>>>>>>> Zerocash or an extension being presented at FC or the bitcoin
>>>>>>>> workshop, that it might be being squelched/unwelcome somehow by the
>>>>>>>> foundation influence there? That's not the case... members of the
>>>>>>>> zerocash team will be there and will probably present a development
>>>>>>>> update of some kind at the rump session.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you're also suggesting that because the Bitcoin Foundation is
>>>>>>>> a sponsor of the FC conference that it's corrupted by it's influence.
>>>>>>>> I don't think that's the case... it's an academic research conference,
>>>>>>>> a panel of researchers reviews (blindedly) the papers that anyone can
>>>>>>>> submit, and selects the ones that are technically best. I haven't seen
>>>>>>>> any evidence of corruption in this process but I'd be happy to answer
>>>>>>>> any questions you have about it. This conference originated during the
>>>>>>>> first crypto wars, when cryptography was on the verge becoming
>>>>>>>> illegal; kowtowing to anti-privacy interested would be perverse
>>>>>>>> against its culture. Also there's a session in the bitcoin workshop
>>>>>>>> about (improving) Bitcoin privacy.
>>>>>>>> http://fc15.ifca.ai/bitcoin/schedule.html <http://fc15.ifca.ai/bitcoin/schedule.html>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net <http://unsystem.net/>
>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mathias Grønnebæk
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem <https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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