> Brian
>
> If you're arguing morality, how about considering the whole thing from
> a different perspective. First, let's assume we can forgive the US
> government for its enormously hypocritical behavior in regard to the
> war on drugs (i.e., the significant amount of evidence that the CIA
> imports and financially supports drug producers, the positive impact
> on opium production that our invasion of Afghanistan had
> (http://static.wixstatic.com/media/99909e_2a76c5021bf544879e238e6c6afe3236.png_srz_828_480_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz),
> etc), or the fact that it has really only lead to increased police
> budgets and the highest rate of imprisonment in the world (where many
> low cost "made in america" products are made by the prisoners, btw, at
> substantially below minimum wage rates). The reality is that the trade
> of "drugs" has been a part of our history as far back as one can look.
> Just like it did to the alcohol trade, the abolition of the drug trade
> is what made it violent. What the Silk Road accomplished was to make
> it a safe and non-violent process again - whether Ross is DPR or not,
> and whether or not DPR ever allegedly ordered the killing of a handful
> of people to protect a system that was able to conduct such a large
> amount of trade without violence before that point (and with
> impression of protection from the threat of state-imposed violence),
> would you not agree that the Silk Road worked as a much more civilized
> mechanism than the current status quo? Wasn't it working in a far more
> "moral" way than alternatives?
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Brian Hoffman <brian@???
> <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>
> Perhaps.
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2015, at 2:29 PM, Cody R Wilson <codywilson@???
> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>
>> My argument is you've internalized your masters and their morality.
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2015 1:25 PM, "Brian Hoffman" <brian@???
>> <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>
>> So your argument is drug kingpins gonna kingpin so it's all
>> fair in love and war? I've tried hard to follow your line of
>> argument, but I will claim ignorance here and move on.
>>
>> On another note, I thought that he wrote the hells angel
>> comment in his personal journal. They argued that wasn't him?
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Cody R Wilson
>> <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey buddy, you're in the wrong line of work if you can't
>>> stomach a militant ethics or name your adversary.
>>>
>>> In this case, bourgouis legality and its attendant
>>> universals are keeping you in check. You, with openbazaar no
>>> less.
>>>
>>> I expect you'll be singing on the stand, yes?
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2015 1:09 PM, "Brian Hoffman"
>>> <brian@??? <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> So conspiracy to attempt murder is ethical now? I think
>>> I've heard everything. I'll buy that this trial wasn't
>>> about him trying to murder anyone, but that's a fucking
>>> weak argument. I like how you casually place murder in
>>> that "protection" bucket.
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Cody R Wilson
>>> <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not only that, it is ethical to protect your suppliers
>>>> and customers from ruin when another party threatens
>>>> them with state violence.
>>>>
>>>> Ross' takedown was also necessary because of his ethics.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2015 12:35 PM, "Adam B. Levine"
>>>> <adam@???
>>>> <mailto:adam@letstalkbitcoin.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think the point was not that he committed murder
>>>> or was accused of committing murder, it was that
>>>> the defense did not deny that his intention was for
>>>> someone to be murdered and he took steps that he
>>>> thought would lead to that outcome.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think it is an acceptable behavior to pay
>>>> someone to murder someone else because you think
>>>> they threaten your illegal business?
>>>>
>>>> Adam B. Levine
>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>> Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Julia Tourianski
>>>> <juliatourianski@???
>>>> <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Drug trafficking, conspiracy to drug
>>>> trafficking, money laundering conspiracy to
>>>> hack, selling fraudulent identification... and
>>>> variations of what I already mentioned. The
>>>> murder thing was all bullshit and he was never
>>>> indicted for it. the fact that people are so
>>>> hung up on it even in this mailing list shows
>>>> how effective of a slander strategy it was
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2015 9:36 AM, "Alicia Cruz"
>>>> <accruz44@???
>>>> <mailto:accruz44@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ross didn't actually get charged with
>>>> murder I thought? And was convicted on drug
>>>> trafficking, hacking, and money laundering.
>>>> Julia, do you have a full list of what the
>>>> conviction was?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Julia
>>>> Tourianski <juliatourianski@???
>>>> <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> He was confident because "I have an
>>>> answer for everything"
>>>>
>>>> unfortunately the defense was not
>>>> allowed to present half of their
>>>> evidence , and half of their witnesses
>>>> were not allowed to speak either.
>>>>
>>>> His fait was sealed before it even
>>>> started.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2015 10:17 PM, "Juan S. Galt"
>>>> <eljuangalt@???
>>>> <mailto:eljuangalt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've yet to look a the evidence
>>>> presented at the trial, havn't had
>>>> time. However, the CIA has admitted
>>>> to false flag operations and Its
>>>> hard to argue that it is above them
>>>> to do such a thing in this case,
>>>> particularly given how the Silk
>>>> Road arguable threatens the status
>>>> quo in regards to the war on drugs.
>>>>
>>>> So, without looking at the
>>>> evidence, my loyalty is with Ross.
>>>> However, if those threats were
>>>> indeed made, and Ross made them,
>>>> than yes, that alone would deserve
>>>> moral judgment and appropriate
>>>> social action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:57 PM,
>>>> Mathias Groennebaek
>>>> <mathias@???
>>>> <mailto:mathias@cloudtech.dk>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have I missed something, or did
>>>> the defence not really provide
>>>> any particular proof of Ross
>>>> not having ordered the hit on
>>>> several people? And if so, why
>>>> is it so hard to understand why
>>>> he has been convicted, when
>>>> there is an ample amount of
>>>> proof that he did indeed do so?
>>>> From a moral perspective,
>>>> anyone involved in a murder
>>>> should in my honest opinion be
>>>> convicted of their crimes. The
>>>> silk road trial and a
>>>> discussion in general about
>>>> drugs and their legality is a
>>>> separate matter entirely to me.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 9:39 AM,
>>>> Juan S. Galt
>>>> <eljuangalt@???
>>>> <mailto:eljuangalt@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone with enough mind to
>>>> think about it for a few
>>>> minutes knows this trial
>>>> has been rigged from the
>>>> start.
>>>>
>>>> "It is important to note
>>>> that since there is no
>>>> victim to Ross’s alleged
>>>> illegal activity this court
>>>> case is not founded on
>>>> contract law. And given the
>>>> 500+ variations of cannabis
>>>> that was traded on the Silk
>>>> Road, it’s hard to say it
>>>> was even anti-democratic
>>>> with the plant being one of
>>>> the most popular
>>>> recreational and medicinal
>>>> drugs, which after decades
>>>> of controversy remains
>>>> illegal."
>>>>
>>>> http://cointelegraph.com/news/113393/dread-pirate-roberts-imprisonment-vs-innovation-op-ed
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:24
>>>> PM, Brian Hoffman
>>>> <brian@???
>>>> <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Touche
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:23
>>>> PM, Cody R Wilson
>>>> <codywilson@???
>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What's reddit?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015 7:22
>>>>> PM, "Brian Hoffman"
>>>>> <brian@???
>>>>> <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Meh it's just fun
>>>>> times. Don't tell
>>>>> me all the Reddit
>>>>> babble has you
>>>>> rattled. I'm just
>>>>> messing with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at
>>>>> 8:18 PM, Cody R
>>>>> Wilson
>>>>> <codywilson@???
>>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Brian, if I
>>>>>> don't know better
>>>>>> I'd say you were
>>>>>> being snide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015
>>>>>> 7:10 PM, "Brian
>>>>>> Hoffman"
>>>>>> <brian@???
>>>>>> <mailto:brian@openbazaar.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And he
>>>>>> endorses you
>>>>>> for Bitcoin
>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>> board as a
>>>>>> result of
>>>>>> your support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4,
>>>>>> 2015, at 8:04
>>>>>> PM, Cody R
>>>>>> Wilson
>>>>>> <codywilson@???
>>>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've said
>>>>>>> before, I
>>>>>>> support him
>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>> what he is
>>>>>>> accused. Not
>>>>>>> despite it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 4,
>>>>>>> 2015 7:02
>>>>>>> PM, "Adam B.
>>>>>>> Levine"
>>>>>>> <adam@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:adam@letstalkbitcoin.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does
>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> or not
>>>>>>> Ross did
>>>>>>> what he
>>>>>>> is being
>>>>>>> accused
>>>>>>> of and
>>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>> for,
>>>>>>> matter?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adam B.
>>>>>>> Levine
>>>>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>>>>> Let's
>>>>>>> Talk
>>>>>>> Bitcoin!
>>>>>>> <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed,
>>>>>>> Feb 4,
>>>>>>> 2015 at
>>>>>>> 3:40 PM,
>>>>>>> Julia
>>>>>>> Tourianski
>>>>>>> <juliatourianski@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:juliatourianski@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> watched
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> father
>>>>>>> breakdown
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> phone with
>>>>>>> Ross's
>>>>>>> sister
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> world has
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> frozen
>>>>>>> since that
>>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>>> their pain
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> after witnessing
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> His
>>>>>>> mother
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> staying
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> strong,
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> for her.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> jury
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> smiling
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> announced
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> basic nature
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> common,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Justice"
>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Feb
>>>>>>> 4,
>>>>>>> 2015
>>>>>>> 5:42
>>>>>>> PM,
>>>>>>> "Cody R
>>>>>>> Wilson"
>>>>>>> <codywilson@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take
>>>>>>> heart.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> knew
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> likely.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>> battle
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> challenging
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> US'
>>>>>>> acquisition
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> server
>>>>>>> info.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't
>>>>>>> argue
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> facts,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> proof
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Feb
>>>>>>> 4,
>>>>>>> 2015
>>>>>>> 4:40
>>>>>>> PM,
>>>>>>> "Alicia
>>>>>>> Cruz"
>>>>>>> <accruz44@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:accruz44@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Wed,
>>>>>>> Feb
>>>>>>> 4,
>>>>>>> 2015
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> 4:31
>>>>>>> PM,
>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>> <millsdmb@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:millsdmb@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guilty
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> charges
>>>>>>> :(:(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>> 23,
>>>>>>> 2015
>>>>>>> 12:49
>>>>>>> PM,
>>>>>>> "Andrew
>>>>>>> Miller"
>>>>>>> <amiller@???
>>>>>>> <mailto:amiller@cs.umd.edu>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > um
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> notice
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> happening
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> Puerto
>>>>>>> Rico
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>> Bitcoin
>>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> ZeroCash
>>>>>>> project,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>> FinCrypto,
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> noticeably
>>>>>>> ABSENT
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> upcoming
>>>>>>> one?
>>>>>>> See:
>>>>>>> > http://fc15.ifca.ai
>>>>>>> (yeah,
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>> read)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> research
>>>>>>> paper
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> Zerocash
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> FC
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bitcoin
>>>>>>> workshop,
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> squelched/unwelcome
>>>>>>> somehow
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> foundation
>>>>>>> influence
>>>>>>> there?
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> case...
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> zerocash
>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>> a development
>>>>>>> update
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> rump
>>>>>>> session.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Bitcoin
>>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a sponsor
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> FC
>>>>>>> conference
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> corrupted
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> influence.
>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> case...
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> academic
>>>>>>> research
>>>>>>> conference,
>>>>>>> a panel
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> researchers
>>>>>>> reviews
>>>>>>> (blindedly)
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> papers
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> submit,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> selects
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> technically
>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>> I haven't
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> evidence
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> corruption
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> happy
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> conference
>>>>>>> originated
>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> crypto
>>>>>>> wars,
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> cryptography
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> verge
>>>>>>> becoming
>>>>>>> illegal;
>>>>>>> kowtowing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> anti-privacy
>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> perverse
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> culture.
>>>>>>> Also
>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>> a session
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bitcoin
>>>>>>> workshop
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> (improving)
>>>>>>> Bitcoin
>>>>>>> privacy.
>>>>>>> http://fc15.ifca.ai/bitcoin/schedule.html
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list:
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>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list:
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>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list: http://unsystem.net
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
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>>>>>>> list:
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list:
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mathias Grønnebæk
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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::
Re: [unSYSTEM] Silk Road Trial is s…
