I think it is fine that T.J.Duchene gives his opinion, although I
disagree with him. I'm very optimistic about Systemd-free Linux, so
optimistic that I think Devuan is simply preparing the future of Debian.

     The reason why RedHat develops and enforces systemd is clear to me: 
they have customers paying for a ready-made system that RedHat would 
maintain. They want to increase their productivity by introducing tools 
which automate things as much as possible, plus security-related 
features -- a valid sales argument. It makes full sense; that's their 
busyness model.

     But what are Debian maintainers/developpers working for? OK they 
try to provide an OS that's usable out of the box, but for who? 
Everybody, they claim, but this includes primarily people like 
themselves, geeks and hackers. And they likely will see geeks and 
hackers run away. Debian has taken a very wrong decision but they're 
going to have chances to change it.

     Didier

Le 03/02/2015 10:10, R.M. Thomas a écrit :
> On 03/02/15 07:04, dng-request@??? wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 00:21:06 -0600
>> From: t.j.duchene@???
>> To: dng@???
>> Subject: Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
>> Message-ID: <2216145.ytyAqhlZeR@workstation>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> On Monday, February 02, 2015 11:32:52 PM dng-request@???
>> wrote:
>>> Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of
>>>
>>>> compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how
>>>> you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets
>>>> integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well
>>>> be "game over" for systems that do not provide at least a shim.
>>>
>>> By all means then, let Devuan provide a shim, at least in the short
>>> run.
>>>
>>>> I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are
>>>> probably the most likely solutions.
>>>
>>> And you're on this list why?
>>>
>>> Seriously, T.J. why?
>>
>>
>> Hey, Steve!
>>
>> Don't get me wrong here, I'm just expressing the _opinion_ that Systemd
>> compatibility is going to be a greater problem down the road,
>> especially since
>> it seems likely that upstream projects, including the Linux kernel
>> itself
>> (via kdbus) are headed in the direction that they are.
>>
>> I was suggesting that some way of trapping systemd calls and
>> resolving them
>> will have to become a part of the system, even if Devuan does not
>> have systemd
>> itself. Otherwise, a lot of code is going to be have to dropped from
>> the
>> distribution or forked as time goes on.
>>
>> I was suggesting that systembsd's efforts might be of value in this
>> area.
>>
>> Apparently, just saying that is annoying some people, and I apologize
>> for
>> that. Perhaps you are right, and it would be best if I kept my
>> opinions to
>> myself.
>
> T.J.'s opinions make a lot of sense to me and I suspect also to others
> reading this list. Many people who have in the past relied upon
> Debian Linux as a solid platform for doing productive work are now
> looking at various alternatives in the face of the systemd phenomenon,
> and some of these people are sure to be subscribing to the DNG mailing
> list in the hope of seeing some good news.
>
> I suppose FreeBSD is the obvious first destination for Debian
> refugees, and personally I am actively exploring that solution at the
> moment. But it would be very nice indeed if the Devuan project can be
> made to succeed, as Devuan would provide an attractive way of
> leveraging the ongoing vigorous development of the Linux kernel. I
> should remark that I am prepared to do more than wish the Devuan
> project well: in the longer term I am willing to assist actively in
> testing and coding if it turns out that I am capable of contributing
> positively.
>
> --Mike
>
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