On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:54:12 -0600
t.j.duchene@??? wrote:

> On Monday, February 02, 2015 07:57:23 PM Vlad wrote:
> > Hey Lennart if you dislike Devuan that much feel free to go back to
> > freedesktop.org or whatever?
> >
>
> You misunderstood what I meant. I was in a hurry, and I admit, I
> should have phrased it better. Mea culpa.
>
> The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to
> stay,

Oh geez, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on the first post, and now
you write the preceding. You're on this mailing list why?

People are working very hard to depoetterize Linux as fast as Red Hat
can poetterize it. Your statement above is a slap in the face to the
people making eudev, vdev, and lots of other stuff.

You must have one heck of a crystal ball, because I sure haven't had
voices from a burning bush tell me that systemd is here to stay. It
could easily be gone, and considered a huge mistake, within three years.

> and it is likely going to be a long term issue, requiring a
> long term solution. Consider that upstream projects entirely outside
> of Devuan's control are going to be aiming dependencies on systemd.
> Gnome already does, and there are plains for KDE to take a similar
> path.

There's an easy cure for that: f em! If they force Devian not to
support them, well, that was their decision, wasn't it?

>
> There is no escaping this fact of life.

So true. The British will rule America and India, it's a fact of life.
What the hell does "fact of life" even mean?

> Linux as an OS is developed
> in a hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such
> wide adoption is that it simplifies their work. As long as
> distributors use it, more and more project developers are going to
> create dependencies on systemd.

You really do love systemd. I thought it was just a summer thing.

If you want to simplify their work, read up on the Supervision Scripts
at https://bitbucket.org/avery_payne/supervision-scripts .

>
> Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software
> that decides to use systemd's facilities,

Not a bad idea at all in the long run, but in the short run I've proven
over and over again that you can init with a simple init, and
(temporarily) use systemd's udev etc. As far as Gnome, well, they made
their choice, let them live with it.

> it's going to be a war of
> attrition as things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd.

Yeah, they said Linux could never survive against Windows either.

> Unless systemd implodes of its own accord, which is unlikely -

Very likely. For instance, look at who is left on Debian-User. Nothing
but noob, far as the eye can see. This is where they scout for devs.
Huge numbers of people are totally enraged with systemd. The only
people who totally love systemd are paid to do so.

> Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of
> compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how
> you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets
> integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well
> be "game over" for systems that do not provide at least a shim.

By all means then, let Devuan provide a shim, at least in the short
run.

> I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are
> probably the most likely solutions.

And you're on this list why?

Seriously, T.J. why? I said anti-Debian stuff on the Debian-User list
because I saw Debian as the last hope for life without systemd. I was
factually wrong. But you have millions of choices, involving systemd
from 100% to 0% and anything in between, so why do you come on this
list evangelizing systemd, and telling us our efforts are useless?

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance