:: Re: [Dng] Lennart says Devuan is go…
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Autor: Svante Signell
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A: dng
Assumpte: Re: [Dng] Lennart says Devuan is going nowhere and will fail, decrys anonymity
Hello,

Very nicely written, especially about abandoning portability and POSIX
compatibility as well as UNIX philosophy. Examples are dbus and systemd.
Can you write this down somewhere, in devuan/elsewhere, so it can be
linked to? It might be useful to spread the word about this :-)

Thanks,
from a (currently Debian) GNU/Hurd porter

On Thu, 2014-12-11 at 18:01 +0000, t.j.duchene@??? wrote:
> Firstly, thank you, Clarke =) It’s nice to have a discussion without
> the drama and I really appreciate it.
>
>
>
> >There is a horrendous waste of effort on both sides that much is for
> sure.
>
>
> Yes, it is a wasted effort, but perhaps it may bear some fruit in the
> long run. A lot of Linux’s history has been missteps that led to
> better approaches. Things like the XFree license debacle, the
> long debate over the Qt license, and the horrific debates that
> accompanied dynamic device nodes come to mind. You have an influx of
> younger talent who believe that their approach is best. This does not
> strike me as anything different really.
>
> >I think this waste happened as soon a systemd became more than a new
> init and started replacing and encapsulating perfectly good
> > services and limiting choice of approach.
>
> Systemd doesn’t have to be the classic “choice" problem. The fact that
> most distributions of Linux are provided as binary when combined with
> systemd is the real issue. When your package manager does not provide
> alternative package chains to binary packages such as systemd, that
> leaves you at the mercy of whatever approach the distributor took as
> the default. Gentoo is the only major distribution that avoids this,
> by having you compile it yourself, while keeping systemd optional.
> Granted, not everyone has the skill to do that. This is why I made
> comment earlier that after Devuan gets released, as a long term
> strategy, the package management system needs to be reexamined. We
> can discuss this at length elsewhere if you like, but I believe that
> the only way for Devuan solve its long term goal of preserving
> choice will be to either fork APT or abandon it entirely, in light to
> the way that Linux is becoming a form of binary monoculture.
>
>
> >systemd is grabbing the very roots of the OS and sneaking into
> everything it possibly can from basic networking and device
> functioning to >desktop environment dependencies.
>
>
> What really concerns me the most with Linux/systemd debate in
> particular is that two things are different. One is the widespread
> adoption of the idea of FLOS (Free Linux Operating System) instead of
> FOSS (Free Open Source Software). This advocates the idea that
> Linux is the only Unix - rest of the world be damned. The second is
> the continuing pressure to abandon POSIX in favor of Linux-isms. Kay
> and Lennart do make some fine points. If they didn’t, they never
> would have made it this far. On the other hand, Lennart in particular
> advocates abandoning attempts at software portability and POSIX
> compatibility, which I feel is an extremely foolish thing to do. The
> main reason that opensource has prospered to this point is POSIX. It
> might be a somewhat less than stellar standard, however it provides a
> rough level of portability between operating systems and
> kernels. This makes code more useful, even between versions of
> Linux, ie RedHat or Debian. Systemd will cause long term
> problems because its API/ABI is not completely stable, nor is it
> necessarily backward compatible.
>
> What I fear is the “ghetto-ization” of entire codebases in much the
> same way that Windows code is hard to port.  Even though Microsoft was
> a signatory to POSIX, they abandoned the standard in favor of their
> own.  I think that Linux as an OS (not the kernel as of yet)  has set
> its own course for community self-destruction, because its most
> talented and vocal people do not have the experience or common sense
> to see that their approaches are now undermining their efforts over
> the long term to foster the larger community that now includes Linux,
> Apple, FreeBSD, and even Microsoft - who is taking their first
> baby-steps.     

>
> Linux users hated Ballmer for calling opensource licensing - not
> necessarily Linux - a “cancer”. I find it strange that Linux
> users are now advocating a similar disdain for everyone else.
>
> >Forking the Kernel as a way to avoid this creeping Poetterama? I
> think you forgot the winking smiley.
>
> LOL Ty for that. I needed some humor. It may come to that if kdbus
> makes its way into the Linux kernel and they succeed in depreciating
> udev.
>
>
>
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