Unlurking here for a moment:
IMO Devuan is at a stage where it could do with as many friends as
possible, and to be seen as the right way to go.
Systemd aside, labelling a whole tranche of software as 'antisocial'
stifles those good vibes. Please can I suggest something less emotive,
such as: 'open' and 'closed', 'inside' and 'outside'?
As an illustration, aspiring thuglets in the UK are handed 'ASBOs' by
the court -- Antisocial Behaviour Orders -- to enforce their future good
behaviour. 'Antisocial' a word that many here associate with criminal
activities thanks to the efforts of the newspapers.
Imagine a potential convert whose use case forced them to look at
closed, 'antisocial' code that had a less unfriendly name in some other
distro's repos. They could justifiably wonder how much help to expect
from the Devuan community. 'Antisocial' isn't just a word that
discourages things. It thrice damns them.
It's a small step from that to wondering off to another distro that
didn't make such loaded distinctions. Hardly a way to build trust and
(later) Devuan user evangelism.
Trivial as the above scenario might sound, it's exactly the kind of
thing that would build or detract from Devuan's position in the wider
world.
That's my 0.02 sesterces. Back to lurking.
David H
On 07/12/2014 09:09, dng-request@??? wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: scripts, blobs, wares, hate, Chi & cheers! (Steven W. Scott)
> 2. A modest proposal: dfree packages for current Debian users
> (Joel Roth)
> 3. Re: Uninstallation of libsystemd0 (Franco Lanza)
> 4. Re: A devuan "constitution" (Franco Lanza)
> 5. Re: contrib/non-free/antisocial/community/unsupported
> sections (Franco Lanza)
> 6. Re: A defined list of requirements and what next? (Franco Lanza)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 02:04:30 -0500
> From: "Steven W. Scott" <codekraken@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [Dng] scripts, blobs, wares, hate, Chi & cheers!
> Message-ID:
> <CACp2iDF4HvnJYe6jzcro=z4gyynZGaakte_U7WhJPxUZVbg+qQ@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> .... or actually, I can provide the code and you can put it wherever you
> want. You just need to point the webhook at it.
>
> SWS
> On Dec 6, 2014 11:20 PM, "Steven W. Scott" <codekraken@???> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am truly enjoying the diversity of conversation and opinion, without a
>> doubt. :)
>> From what I have read, it seems most folks here prefer to argue the
>> merits of their position. Only a few loners tossed the H-bomb, and then
>> they left with righteous insecurity.
>>
>> As an old-school assembler guy, I don't care what scripting language you
>> use, it's a vehicle. They all have quirks and/or costs. Mercedes, Nissan,
>> Audi, Chevy? It's a trade-off somewhere. Where does it hurt the least, Can
>> it handle the road, can anybody drive it, and how far will it take you?
>>
>> I honestly have never understood the term "non-free" for software that I
>> get, well, for free. It's only when the lawyers get involved that life
>> becomes difficult. I purchase a piece of equipment, as part of that
>> purchase, I have right to the software for that kit. Why not just call the
>> repository "unsupported?" Certainly sounds better than "antisocial", though
>> I do get a chuckle every time.
>>
>> Regarding the suggestion of dishevelment, I must say, from my
>> encounters, this project has a decided Chi, balance and form on IRC. Good
>> things are worthy of patience. I recommend: wait.
>>
>> Constitution? Naaaah. Declaration. It's just the beginning.
>>
>> Finally, I'm willing to help in any way possible. It was suggested on
>> IRC that a relay for github commits to the IRC channel would be useful and
>> appreciated, so I've been playing with various bots, but fell in love with
>> github webhooks, 'cause I am all about event-driven goodness. I'm still
>> testing, but it requires the repository owner, once I have it fully tested,
>> to enter a Webhook URL I will provide (legit https site of course, no
>> self-signed). From there I can drive the events to wherever necessary. If
>> that's a nogo, just let me know and I'll find an alternative method.
>>
>> Cheers to all, if it sucks, say so and say why. Opinion is not hate.
>>
>> SWS
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 22:59:17 -1000
> From: Joel Roth <joelz@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: [Dng] A modest proposal: dfree packages for current Debian
> users
> Message-ID: <20141207085917.GA23468@sprite>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi all,
>
> Pleased to see so many experienced *nix hands taking issue
> with Debian plans for introducing systemd, and seeking
> alternatives.
>
> It will certainly take some months to be able to establish
> the infrastructure teams and processes to deliver a new
> distribution derived from Debian. In the interim I think it
> would be nice to offer some path forward to jessie or sid
> users wanting to escape the web of systemd dependencies.
>
> If we can provide equivalent packages *without* the systemd
> dependency through a separate repository, users wanting to
> avoid systemd could simply add the repo to their
> /etc/apt/sources.list.
>
> Most of the end-user frameworks and applications that pull
> in systemd, do not depend on systemd directly, but depend on
> some other package that depends on systemd.
>
> So one strategy is to pin those key packages to versions
> that don't depend on systemd. For example, pinning dbus
> 1.5.8-1, avoids systemd dependencies via dbus.[1,2] That
> approach is worth researching and publicizing.
>
> Another is to distribute modified package versions.
>
> A member of the debian-user mailing list analyzed the
> package dependencies on systemd components on his system and
> generated some graphs.[3] The graphs are not authoritative as
> he only analyzed the packages installed on his system;
> nevertheless they quite informative.
>
> There are less than a dozen packages at the bottom, whose
> systemd dependencies get propagated through the rest of the
> packaging hierarchy.
>
> He then rebuilt these second-tier packages for himself
> *without* the dependencies on systemd, and found no
> particular issues on his system. He didn't patch the original
> sources, only made changes under debian/.
>
> While he wasn't interested in pursuing the project further
> than his own needs, he kindly passed me his patches to the
> package sources. Please contact me if you are interested
> on working on these packages, which include:
>
> dbus
> fcgiwrap
> gvfs
> php5
> policykit
> pulseaudio
> udisks2
>
> I've started with dbus.[4] If someone can build
> amd64 and i386 versions of this package, that is
> something we can distribute.
>
> Thanks for your attention. Kind regards,
>
> Joel
>
> 1. http://snapshot.debian.org/package/dbus/1.5.8-1/
> 2. http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-10.html#p3990
> 3. http://imgur.com/a/Wi1zb
> 4. https://github.com/bolangi/dbus-debian-dfree
>
::
Re: [Dng] contrib/non-free/antisoci…
