On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 01:40:44PM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
> Or maybe I've had more experience at seeing things like this go bad than
> you have.
>
> No
>
> You can not start a project of this magnitude without formal
> introductions, honesty and integrity.
>
> None of that is happening with the "Old Unix Admins"
>
> The first priority of business needs to get the house in order.
>
> This already has all the earmarks of endeavor that at best will fail and
> at worst, just be an outright fraud.
>
> 1) You have people fluffying over hard facts with misleading statements.
>
> 2) You have a failure to identify the proponents and organizers upfront.
>
> 3) You have theological pandering not related to the expressed purpose of
> the supposed project being bantered about.
>
> 4) You also have a failure of basic consensus as to the stated goals of the
> project.
>
> 5) and you have purposefully misleading campaign which misidentifies the
> organizers as "Old Time Unix Admins"
>
> Enough
>
> What is needed here is sunlight, not deceptions. It starts with "Hi,
> I'm Denis Jaromil Roio. I Own and Run Dyne.org and I want to help fork
> Debian without systemd. Here is what I propose. Here is what I can do.
> Here is how I hope to organize this. Here is how you contact me! And
> if you send me Money, I will use it like THIS and here is how i can be
> found toi be accountable.


First, thanks for setting out your concerns as something other than a
flame; I had just decided that a killfile was what I needed for the
list, but now I'll take you off.

Second, I'd agree that asking for monetary donations before the organizers
are identified reeks of scamming.
Not saying that it *is* a scam, but if you don't want to *look* like a
scam, the destination of the money should be clear enough that papers
could be served *if* it *were* one. And the use should be stated clearly
and specifically.

Third, I disagree with any statements or implications that identitifying
the organizers further than they are already identified is desireable
before proceeding with the work.
Once there's a repository where we can install eudev and a systemd-free
base from, then identities are important.
Until then, asking for identities is helping harassers.
(This point does not override the second point; if you need money before
you can put the repositories up, make yourselves known.)

Fourth, it seems clear that the immediate point is a base system that
doesn't require any packages built from the systemd source.
The GR calling for "loose coupling" is compatible with this; there
*may* be people who want to use systemd, loosely coupled.
Until we hear from them and have met the immediate goal, let's not get
distracted from working on the immediate goal.

But we do need to figure out what the principle behind that goal is:
it's unreasonable to assume that systemd will be the only all-engulfing
"New Technology" (allusion intentional) that comes along, and we need
to be ready for the next one.

Finally, that "Veteran Unix Admins" is a deliberate reference to
"Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin" [1] and that some but not
all of the organizers also qualify in the chronological sense has
been explained at least twice, and probably several more times by
the time you read this.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham


[1] http://www.infoworld.com/article/2611365/data-center/nine-traits-of-the-veteran-network-admin.html