On 30/11/2014 7:28 pm, "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@???> wrote:
>
> [left out a rather important clause in my 2nd sentence]
>
>
> Franco Lanza wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:54:23PM +0000, Noel Torres wrote:
>>>
>>> Do not look at me so fiercy.
>>>
>>> For me Devuan is about freedom. Specifically users' freedom. And with
init
>>> freedom as a starting point.
>>>
>> As already known, we are NOT against systemd. We are pro-freedom.
>> Systemd WILL BE supported in devuan. Just not in the same manner as it
>> is in debian where it eat whole system.
>>
>>
>
> As a matter of priorities and framing:
>
> Including systemd, even as an option - maybe particularly as an option -
SEEMS A DANGEROUS DIVERSION OF EFFORT.
> Given that there are well-funded folks working very hard, and openly, to
> make sure that systemd inherently engulfs and devours systems it runs on
> - it will take a huge amount of effort to accommodate systemd as an
> "option." Witness the effort going into constantly revising
> systemd-shim as the systemd interfaces keep shifting. Getting pulled
> into this kind of activity strikes me as a serious, perhaps fatal,
> diversion of effort.
>
> There's going to enough work to make sure we can build a distro that
> doesn't require systemd and its relatives, starting with eudev (or even
> devfs) instead of udev, and keeping up with each new function that the
> systemd folks absorb under its umbrella. Maybe a bit less work if we
> can leverage the work of other distros trying to avoid systemd
> entanglement - notably Slackware, Gentoo, Funtoo, maybe GNU Linux.
>
> Let's not divert energies into finding ways to support systemd. Better
> to push that problem back upstream
> - both to the "systemd cabal" (again, I'm reminded of Linus' rant re.
> ..."I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this
> constant pattern is fixed."), and,
> - to the rest of the development community ("please don't build in
> dependencies to systemd, etc., target 'clean' environments first").
>
> And, that latter point bears repeating - let's give upstream developers
> an option, not another reason to feel that they have to buy into
> systemd, whether they like it or not.
>
> Let's make it "Devuan will support systemd (and udev, and ...) - when
> they meet <a clearly stated set of requirements>" rather than "we'll
> expend the effort to find a way to support systemd in a less intrusive
> way." Let's hold the line folks.
>
> Miles Fidelman
>

+1

> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
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