[left out a rather important clause in my 2nd sentence]


Franco Lanza wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:54:23PM +0000, Noel Torres wrote:
>> Do not look at me so fiercy.
>>
>> For me Devuan is about freedom. Specifically users' freedom. And with init
>> freedom as a starting point.
>>
> As already known, we are NOT against systemd. We are pro-freedom.
> Systemd WILL BE supported in devuan. Just not in the same manner as it
> is in debian where it eat whole system.
>
>

As a matter of priorities and framing:

Including systemd, even as an option - maybe particularly as an option - SEEMS A DANGEROUS DIVERSION OF EFFORT.
Given that there are well-funded folks working very hard, and openly, to
make sure that systemd inherently engulfs and devours systems it runs on
- it will take a huge amount of effort to accommodate systemd as an
"option." Witness the effort going into constantly revising
systemd-shim as the systemd interfaces keep shifting. Getting pulled
into this kind of activity strikes me as a serious, perhaps fatal,
diversion of effort.

There's going to enough work to make sure we can build a distro that
doesn't require systemd and its relatives, starting with eudev (or even
devfs) instead of udev, and keeping up with each new function that the
systemd folks absorb under its umbrella. Maybe a bit less work if we
can leverage the work of other distros trying to avoid systemd
entanglement - notably Slackware, Gentoo, Funtoo, maybe GNU Linux.

Let's not divert energies into finding ways to support systemd. Better
to push that problem back upstream
- both to the "systemd cabal" (again, I'm reminded of Linus' rant re.
..."I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this
constant pattern is fixed."), and,
- to the rest of the development community ("please don't build in
dependencies to systemd, etc., target 'clean' environments first").

And, that latter point bears repeating - let's give upstream developers
an option, not another reason to feel that they have to buy into
systemd, whether they like it or not.

Let's make it "Devuan will support systemd (and udev, and ...) - when
they meet <a clearly stated set of requirements>" rather than "we'll
expend the effort to find a way to support systemd in a less intrusive
way." Let's hold the line folks.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

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