On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 03:47:16PM +0100, Peter wrote:
> On 11/29/2014 08:34 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 08:58:19PM +0000, chris wrote:
> >> Aside from fixing Debian(!) and other than being anti - systemd, it
> >> seems unclear to me what the aims and goals are for the project.
> > For me its not anti-systemd - but pro-choice.
> >
> > I want to have the ability to install a Debian without touching
> > systemd. You cant right now. You can choose to run sysvinit as
> > pid1 but only by purging systemd and reinstalling sysvinit. But still
> > then you are left with a whole lot of the systemd ecosystem.
> >
> > Have a look at the rdepends of libsystemd0 and other elements
> > of the systemd ecosystem.
> Right.
>
> Or more generically: We must base our goals on principles rather than
> particular software packages we disagree with.
>

What is worng with that? Despite what is being said, systemd is a very
bad peice of software and written by individuals who can not be trust.
It this cruel to say? I don't care. I only care how my systems work
and how much inovation and usage I can get out of them. Most
imnportantly, I expect them to behave as I demand.

> We should not hate systemd, or Lennart,

That is one opinion. Its been considered and rejected. Systemd really
is a bad peice of software that wraps itself around every aspect of the
system and demands conformity with its usage and design, while at the
same time bottle necking all future deveopment through it.

I do not want to use an operating system like that. Even if it was all
perfect in all its code and all it's fuctions, and if the coding team
that ran it was Wizzard of Oz himself, I still don't want it because of
its goals and design.

I'm not convinced that this gorup can pull this off. This will require
a trye fork of debian because all future development in the general
GNU/Linux infrastructure is going to have to pass through systemd
because systemd is NOT an init and it is not designed as one.

It is an operating system wrapper in the light of svchost.exe, or maybe
it is simple not like anything ever done before.

Regardless, having all services run and controlled by a single user
space application that audits and dished out resources from the kernel
to all other applications is not how I wish my computer to function, and
is in fact the problem with degrees of freedom. Freedom of Init Usage
is pretty lame and without value. It is likely also undoable. The
system needs to return to a simple init system that just is confined to
initialziating services and to keep its paws off users, their
applications. If I kill httpd I expect to to die and stay dead.

systemd has crossed two lines.

First, it is not an init system... It is a OS Kernel wrapper. I have
coined the term "Dingo OS" because it is not GNU and it is only Linux in
that it used the Linux Kernel.

Secondly, it has gone from enabling and empowering users to hindering
them and caging them.

If you would like help in forking off of systemd and creating a
GNU/Linux branch that is not depending on either systemd or its
development team, I would be willing to help. Actually, I don't care
if it is a debian fork or an arch fork or even a suse fork....as long as
it forks.

I doubt that any other venture can succeed. Honestly, the Manjaro group
has a good first step forward. You are not likely going to be able to
support Debian packages for a forked disto without systemd. These are
fundamentally incompatible software designs, moving forward.

This will not be like Umbuntu, if that is what you have in mind.

Ruben



> but the way it has been handled
> in hijacking the system we knew and loved. And I think we can learn some
> things from systemd too, but we would have to create something
> consistent with the unix philosophy and common sense before we can use
> it, not because it is impossible to do it otherwise, but because it
> would be inefficient and dangerous.
>

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