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Auteur: Chris Pacia
Date:  
À: System undo crew
Sujet: Re: [unSYSTEM] oh fuck it's really happening... bitcoin is under attack
On Apr 30, 2014 4:10 AM, "Chris" <aenemic@???> wrote:
>
> Property rights outside items of use and occupancy is not Anarchist,
> unless one believes that the contradictory retardation of
> anarcho-capitalism really is a thing.


I would be happy to start another thread for philosophy discussion. But
generally nearly everyone believes if you labor for something you have a
far better claim to that object than someone who doesn't. The only people
who don't believe that are the small minority of Marxists, which is ironic
given that they believe people own their own labor... just apparently not
the fruits of it.

> On 29.04.14 19:06, Chris Pacia wrote:
> > I would just clarify. Many (most?) US libertarians are anarchists and
> > also believe in property rights.
> >
> > And to say libertarians would suggest bitcoin should be owned I think
> > misunderstands what we stand for. We oppose violence and coercion in
> > human relations. We support "anything peaceful" be it property based,
> > communal, open source or what have you.
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > On Apr 29, 2014 12:23 PM, "John Hebert" <johnalexhebert@???
> > <mailto:johnalexhebert@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Interesting point about "If bitcoin was libertarian it would have
> >     been owned by someone from the beginning.". However, not all
> >     libertarians believe in individual property rights. That seems to be
> >     an interpretation of US libertarians. Others associate
> >     libertarianism with anarchism.[1]

> >
> >     Bitcoin mining was a weak point in the design though I can't think
> >     of a better solution. I think Satoshi underestimated Moore's Law and
> >     the impact of innovation driven by greed publicly justified by an
> >     intent for wide-spread adoption. I predict the 21 million bitcoin
> >     limit will be reached much sooner than 2140. Prepare now for the
> >     bitcoin cults predicting the end of the world.

> >
> >     I've always considered bitcoin to be a currency allowing for the
> >     private exchange of goods. I don't think it was intended to be used
> >     for speculation. More people are speculating bitcoins to cash out
> >     than using them for the exchange of goods.

> >
> >     [1] http://goo.gl/vG3GvH

> >
> >     John

> >
> >
> >
> >     On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Tomer Kantor <pollenator@???
> >     <mailto:pollenator@gmail.com>> wrote:

> >
> >         IMO this comes down to 'what is bitcoin?'

> >
> >         If bitcoin was libertarian it would have been owned by someone
> >         from the beginning.
> >         It is commonly understood that it is Anarcho (Cap/Syn). The
> >         'rules' are anarchic, but with the formation of mining
> >         guilds/foundation we get structural power.
> >         To Amir's point that the foundation is financing the development
> >         team; that's the beginning of centralisation, no doubt.

> >
> >         The protocol doesn't have strong property rights that allows for
> >         top down control of the system, it was written in an anarchist
> >         form, so there could/should be no owner of bitcoin.

> >
> >         TK

> >
> >
> >         On 28 April 2014 12:34, Joerg Platzer <joerg@???
> >         <mailto:joerg@room77.de>> wrote:

> >
> >             @Luke

> >
> >             Now i don't even call myself a 'libertarian' as I know too
> >             many weird people labeling themselves libertarian.

> >
> >             But as clear as the window I cleaned this morning:

> >
> >             of course Bitcoin _is_ anarchism as it has no leader as long
> >             as we don't designate one and change the protocol in ways
> >             that allow to control it and hand that over to the leader.

> >
> >             Of course Bitcoin _is_ volanteerism as long as it is
> >             everybody's free desicion to use it or not, volantarily.

> >
> >             And of course Bitcoin _is_ a movement for financial freedom,
> >             what else could it possibly be? You are one hell of a coder
> >             and do not understand that?

> >
> >             When I read this Circle guy's comments like "Bitcoin is
> >             absolutely moving away from its libertarian roots." I'm like
> >             yeah, sure, and bacon and eggs is absolutely moving away
> >             from the bacon or what!? What a nonsense. These people are
> >             screaming for government regulation in order to save me from
> >             identity theft through Bitcoin. They wish to protect me and
> >             'de-risk' Bitcoin. The most hilarious statement is that the
> >             reason for banks not getting involved is that they are
> >             scared to have to go to jail. As if one banker ever was sent
> >             to jail.

> >
> >             Whoever wants to adopt Bitcoin is free to do so or not and I
> >             don't care about their political views as long as they leave
> >             me alone. But the people we are talking about do not simply
> >             want to adopt it, they want to coopt it and turn it into
> >             your usual financial product which they can control so they
> >             can keep on committing their crimes.

> >
> >             'Free money first' is what Benjamin Tucker said 100 years
> >             ago already. And he was right when he said that without free
> >             money there will be no freedom whatever we do.

> >
> >             Financial freedom is hammered into the code in a much more
> >             resiliant way than anything ever written in stone and with
> >             financial freedom comes the rest.

> >
> >             ++jp

> >
> >
> >             ________________________________________
> >             Von: unSYSTEM [unsystem-bounces@???
> >             <mailto:unsystem-bounces@lists.dyne.org>]&quot; im Auftrag
> >             von &quot;Luke-Jr [luke@??? <mailto:luke@dashjr.org>]
> >             Gesendet: Samstag, 26. April 2014 20:11
> >             An: Amir Taaki
> >             Cc: unsystem@??? <mailto:unsystem@lists.dyne.org>
> >             Betreff: Re: [unSYSTEM] oh fuck it's really happening...
> >             bitcoin is under       attack

> >
> >             Amir, I think you contribute much to bitcoin, and I value
> >             that. But Bitcoin is
> >             *not* libertarianism. Bitcoin is *not* anarchism. Bitcoin is
> >             *not*
> >             "volunteerism". Bitcoin is *not* a movement for financial
> >             freedom - or any
> >             political movement at all. Bitcoin is a technology, which
> >             can and should be
> >             embraced by people of any political affiliation. Adoption by
> >             people with views
> >             contrary to your own is not an attack on Bitcoin, it is

growth.
> >
> >             On Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:33:48 PM Amir Taaki wrote:
> >             > I get what you're doing, but we both know that really
> >             isn't the case.
> >             > Allaire speaks from his heart, and they hired Mike Hearn.
> >             > I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth as that's
> >             not how these
> >             > proprietary cultures work.
> >             > Check this quote by him:
> >             >
> >             > "A lot of the safeguards that businesses and consumers
> >             take for granted
> >             > in their everyday interactions and payments don’t exist in
> >             bitcoin [...]"

> >             >
> >             > or

> >             >
> >             > "if your goal is to ensure widespread adoption of bitcoin,
> >             there needs
> >             > to be rules around its use, he says, arguing that it’s not
> >             good enough
> >             > to imagine bitcoin can exist above society."

> >             >
> >             > This doesn't sound like descriptions of systems that
> >             empower users to
> >             > self-regulate. This is the exact speech used behind many
> >             surveillance
> >             > and censorship tools to push them on us. Things like
> >             "anti-fraud"
> >             > blacklists or researching correlation techniques on
> >             consumer activity.

> >             >
> >             > If this tech is developed it will be deployed or pushed
> >             upon places like
> >             > Coinbase. Coinbase is the only business (or US?) in the
> >             valley with a
> >             > banking relationship which they have due to a special
> >             relationship with
> >             > JP Morgan and one of their bankers on their board.
> >             > And that's where these products that work against their
> >             users will come
> >             > into play. Maybe the industry doesn't have enough balls,
> >             and big Bitcoin
> >             > businesses with a large following (CoinBase, BitPay, ...
> >             whoever) start
> >             > "self-regulating" by spying, tracking and censoring their
> >             users.

> >             >
> >             > On 26/04/14 06:31, Peter Todd wrote:
> >             > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:37:11AM +0100, Amir Taaki

wrote:
> >             > >> reducing the risk is newspeak for censorship
> >             > >>
> >             > >> protection against fraud is codeword for surveillance.

> >             > >
> >             > > Maybe it is; maybe it isn't.

> >             > >
> >             > > I hope Circle is just implementing all the decentralized
> >             technologies
> >             > > we've been talking about for ages that let people chose
> >             on their own
> >             > > terms how to reduce the risks involved in their
> >             transactions; best case
> >             > > is all this talk about moving Bitcoin away from its
> >             libertarian roots is
> >             > > just PR material. After all, Dark Market is an example
> >             of that approach,
> >             > > yet could also be marketted as "bringing Bitcoin into
> >             the mainstream
> >             > > with anti-fraud, lower costs, greater privacy safeguard,
> >             and protection
> >             > > against identity theft".

> >             > >
> >             > > I'm not very hopeful that's the case, but lets hold off
> >             on the torches
> >             > > and tar until they publish hard details on what exactly
> >             they are doing.

> >             > >

> >             > >

> >             > >
> >             > > _______________________________________________
> >             > > unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net

> >             > >

> >

https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >             _______________________________________________
> >             unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net

> >

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> >

https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >         Tomer Kantor

> >
> >         Development|Production|Post
> >         OneName - IamSatoshi <https://www.onename.io/iamsatoshi>

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

> >
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >         https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem

> >
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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