> >     Interesting point about "If bitcoin was libertarian it would have
> >     been owned by someone from the beginning.". However, not all
> >     libertarians believe in individual property rights. That seems to be
> >     an interpretation of US libertarians. Others associate
> >     libertarianism with anarchism.[1]

> >     Bitcoin mining was a weak point in the design though I can't think
> >     of a better solution. I think Satoshi underestimated Moore's Law and
> >     the impact of innovation driven by greed publicly justified by an
> >     intent for wide-spread adoption. I predict the 21 million bitcoin
> >     limit will be reached much sooner than 2140. Prepare now for the
> >     bitcoin cults predicting the end of the world.

> >     I've always considered bitcoin to be a currency allowing for the
> >     private exchange of goods. I don't think it was intended to be used
> >     for speculation. More people are speculating bitcoins to cash out
> >     than using them for the exchange of goods.

> >     [1] http://goo.gl/vG3GvH

> >     John

> >     On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Tomer Kantor <pollenator@???
> >     <mailto:pollenator@gmail.com>> wrote:

> >         IMO this comes down to 'what is bitcoin?'

> >         If bitcoin was libertarian it would have been owned by someone
> >         from the beginning.
> >         It is commonly understood that it is Anarcho (Cap/Syn). The
> >         'rules' are anarchic, but with the formation of mining
> >         guilds/foundation we get structural power.
> >         To Amir's point that the foundation is financing the development
> >         team; that's the beginning of centralisation, no doubt.

> >         The protocol doesn't have strong property rights that allows for
> >         top down control of the system, it was written in an anarchist
> >         form, so there could/should be no owner of bitcoin.

> >         TK

> >         On 28 April 2014 12:34, Joerg Platzer <joerg@???
> >         <mailto:joerg@room77.de>> wrote:

> >             @Luke

> >             Now i don't even call myself a 'libertarian' as I know too
> >             many weird people labeling themselves libertarian.

> >             But as clear as the window I cleaned this morning:

> >             of course Bitcoin _is_ anarchism as it has no leader as long
> >             as we don't designate one and change the protocol in ways
> >             that allow to control it and hand that over to the leader.

> >             Of course Bitcoin _is_ volanteerism as long as it is
> >             everybody's free desicion to use it or not, volantarily.

> >             And of course Bitcoin _is_ a movement for financial freedom,
> >             what else could it possibly be? You are one hell of a coder
> >             and do not understand that?

> >             When I read this Circle guy's comments like "Bitcoin is
> >             absolutely moving away from its libertarian roots." I'm like
> >             yeah, sure, and bacon and eggs is absolutely moving away
> >             from the bacon or what!? What a nonsense. These people are
> >             screaming for government regulation in order to save me from
> >             identity theft through Bitcoin. They wish to protect me and
> >             'de-risk' Bitcoin. The most hilarious statement is that the
> >             reason for banks not getting involved is that they are
> >             scared to have to go to jail. As if one banker ever was sent
> >             to jail.

> >             Whoever wants to adopt Bitcoin is free to do so or not and I
> >             don't care about their political views as long as they leave
> >             me alone. But the people we are talking about do not simply
> >             want to adopt it, they want to coopt it and turn it into
> >             your usual financial product which they can control so they
> >             can keep on committing their crimes.

> >             'Free money first' is what Benjamin Tucker said 100 years
> >             ago already. And he was right when he said that without free
> >             money there will be no freedom whatever we do.

> >             Financial freedom is hammered into the code in a much more
> >             resiliant way than anything ever written in stone and with
> >             financial freedom comes the rest.

> >             ++jp

> >             ________________________________________
> >             Von: unSYSTEM [unsystem-bounces@???
> >             <mailto:unsystem-bounces@lists.dyne.org>]&quot; im Auftrag
> >             von &quot;Luke-Jr [luke@??? <mailto:luke@dashjr.org>]
> >             Gesendet: Samstag, 26. April 2014 20:11
> >             An: Amir Taaki
> >             Cc: unsystem@??? <mailto:unsystem@lists.dyne.org>
> >             Betreff: Re: [unSYSTEM] oh fuck it's really happening...
> >             bitcoin is under       attack

> >             Amir, I think you contribute much to bitcoin, and I value
> >             that. But Bitcoin is
> >             *not* libertarianism. Bitcoin is *not* anarchism. Bitcoin is
> >             *not*
> >             "volunteerism". Bitcoin is *not* a movement for financial
> >             freedom - or any
> >             political movement at all. Bitcoin is a technology, which
> >             can and should be
> >             embraced by people of any political affiliation. Adoption by
> >             people with views
> >             contrary to your own is not an attack on Bitcoin, it is

> >             On Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:33:48 PM Amir Taaki wrote:
> >             > I get what you're doing, but we both know that really
> >             isn't the case.
> >             > Allaire speaks from his heart, and they hired Mike Hearn.
> >             > I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth as that's
> >             not how these
> >             > proprietary cultures work.
> >             > Check this quote by him:
> >             >
> >             > "A lot of the safeguards that businesses and consumers
> >             take for granted
> >             > in their everyday interactions and payments don’t exist in
> >             bitcoin [...]"

> >             >
> >             > or

> >             >
> >             > "if your goal is to ensure widespread adoption of bitcoin,
> >             there needs
> >             > to be rules around its use, he says, arguing that it’s not
> >             good enough
> >             > to imagine bitcoin can exist above society."

> >             >
> >             > This doesn't sound like descriptions of systems that
> >             empower users to
> >             > self-regulate. This is the exact speech used behind many
> >             surveillance
> >             > and censorship tools to push them on us. Things like
> >             "anti-fraud"
> >             > blacklists or researching correlation techniques on
> >             consumer activity.

> >             >
> >             > If this tech is developed it will be deployed or pushed
> >             upon places like
> >             > Coinbase. Coinbase is the only business (or US?) in the
> >             valley with a
> >             > banking relationship which they have due to a special
> >             relationship with
> >             > JP Morgan and one of their bankers on their board.
> >             > And that's where these products that work against their
> >             users will come
> >             > into play. Maybe the industry doesn't have enough balls,
> >             and big Bitcoin
> >             > businesses with a large following (CoinBase, BitPay, ...
> >             whoever) start
> >             > "self-regulating" by spying, tracking and censoring their
> >             users.

> >             >
> >             > On 26/04/14 06:31, Peter Todd wrote:
> >             > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:37:11AM +0100, Amir Taaki

> >             > >> reducing the risk is newspeak for censorship
> >             > >>
> >             > >> protection against fraud is codeword for surveillance.

> >             > >
> >             > > Maybe it is; maybe it isn't.

> >             > >
> >             > > I hope Circle is just implementing all the decentralized
> >             technologies
> >             > > we've been talking about for ages that let people chose
> >             on their own
> >             > > terms how to reduce the risks involved in their
> >             transactions; best case
> >             > > is all this talk about moving Bitcoin away from its
> >             libertarian roots is
> >             > > just PR material. After all, Dark Market is an example
> >             of that approach,
> >             > > yet could also be marketted as "bringing Bitcoin into
> >             the mainstream
> >             > > with anti-fraud, lower costs, greater privacy safeguard,
> >             and protection
> >             > > against identity theft".

> >             > >
> >             > > I'm not very hopeful that's the case, but lets hold off
> >             on the torches
> >             > > and tar until they publish hard details on what exactly
> >             they are doing.

> >             > >

> >             > >

> >             > >
> >             > > _______________________________________________
> >             > > unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net

> >             > >

> >             _______________________________________________
> >             unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net

> >             _______________________________________________
> >             unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net

> >         --
> >         Tomer Kantor

> >         Development|Production|Post
> >         OneName - IamSatoshi <https://www.onename.io/iamsatoshi>

> >         Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

> >         _______________________________________________
> >         unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >         https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem

> >     _______________________________________________
> >     unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >     https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem