I would just clarify. Many (most?) US libertarians are anarchists and also
believe in property rights.

And to say libertarians would suggest bitcoin should be owned I think
misunderstands what we stand for. We oppose violence and coercion in human
relations. We support "anything peaceful" be it property based, communal,
open source or what have you.

-Chris
On Apr 29, 2014 12:23 PM, "John Hebert" <johnalexhebert@???> wrote:

> Interesting point about "If bitcoin was libertarian it would have been
> owned by someone from the beginning.". However, not all libertarians
> believe in individual property rights. That seems to be an interpretation
> of US libertarians. Others associate libertarianism with anarchism.[1]
>
> Bitcoin mining was a weak point in the design though I can't think of a
> better solution. I think Satoshi underestimated Moore's Law and the impact
> of innovation driven by greed publicly justified by an intent for
> wide-spread adoption. I predict the 21 million bitcoin limit will be
> reached much sooner than 2140. Prepare now for the bitcoin cults predicting
> the end of the world.
>
> I've always considered bitcoin to be a currency allowing for the private
> exchange of goods. I don't think it was intended to be used for
> speculation. More people are speculating bitcoins to cash out than using
> them for the exchange of goods.
>
> [1] http://goo.gl/vG3GvH
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Tomer Kantor <pollenator@???>wrote:
>
>> IMO this comes down to 'what is bitcoin?'
>>
>> If bitcoin was libertarian it would have been owned by someone from the
>> beginning.
>> It is commonly understood that it is Anarcho (Cap/Syn). The 'rules' are
>> anarchic, but with the formation of mining guilds/foundation we get
>> structural power.
>> To Amir's point that the foundation is financing the development team;
>> that's the beginning of centralisation, no doubt.
>>
>> The protocol doesn't have strong property rights that allows for top down
>> control of the system, it was written in an anarchist form, so there
>> could/should be no owner of bitcoin.
>>
>> TK
>>
>>
>> On 28 April 2014 12:34, Joerg Platzer <joerg@???> wrote:
>>
>>> @Luke
>>>
>>> Now i don't even call myself a 'libertarian' as I know too many weird
>>> people labeling themselves libertarian.
>>>
>>> But as clear as the window I cleaned this morning:
>>>
>>> of course Bitcoin _is_ anarchism as it has no leader as long as we don't
>>> designate one and change the protocol in ways that allow to control it and
>>> hand that over to the leader.
>>>
>>> Of course Bitcoin _is_ volanteerism as long as it is everybody's free
>>> desicion to use it or not, volantarily.
>>>
>>> And of course Bitcoin _is_ a movement for financial freedom, what else
>>> could it possibly be? You are one hell of a coder and do not understand
>>> that?
>>>
>>> When I read this Circle guy's comments like "Bitcoin is absolutely
>>> moving away from its libertarian roots." I'm like yeah, sure, and bacon and
>>> eggs is absolutely moving away from the bacon or what!? What a nonsense.
>>> These people are screaming for government regulation in order to save me
>>> from identity theft through Bitcoin. They wish to protect me and 'de-risk'
>>> Bitcoin. The most hilarious statement is that the reason for banks not
>>> getting involved is that they are scared to have to go to jail. As if one
>>> banker ever was sent to jail.
>>>
>>> Whoever wants to adopt Bitcoin is free to do so or not and I don't care
>>> about their political views as long as they leave me alone. But the people
>>> we are talking about do not simply want to adopt it, they want to coopt it
>>> and turn it into your usual financial product which they can control so
>>> they can keep on committing their crimes.
>>>
>>> 'Free money first' is what Benjamin Tucker said 100 years ago already.
>>> And he was right when he said that without free money there will be no
>>> freedom whatever we do.
>>>
>>> Financial freedom is hammered into the code in a much more resiliant way
>>> than anything ever written in stone and with financial freedom comes the
>>> rest.
>>>
>>> ++jp
>>>
>>>

>>> ________________________________________
>>> Von: unSYSTEM [unsystem-bounces@???]" im Auftrag von
>>> "Luke-Jr [luke@???]
>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 26. April 2014 20:11
>>> An: Amir Taaki
>>> Cc: unsystem@???
>>> Betreff: Re: [unSYSTEM] oh fuck it's really happening... bitcoin is
>>> under       attack

>>>
>>> Amir, I think you contribute much to bitcoin, and I value that. But
>>> Bitcoin is
>>> *not* libertarianism. Bitcoin is *not* anarchism. Bitcoin is *not*
>>> "volunteerism". Bitcoin is *not* a movement for financial freedom - or
>>> any
>>> political movement at all. Bitcoin is a technology, which can and should
>>> be
>>> embraced by people of any political affiliation. Adoption by people with
>>> views
>>> contrary to your own is not an attack on Bitcoin, it is growth.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:33:48 PM Amir Taaki wrote:
>>> > I get what you're doing, but we both know that really isn't the case.
>>> > Allaire speaks from his heart, and they hired Mike Hearn.
>>> > I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth as that's not how these
>>> > proprietary cultures work.
>>> > Check this quote by him:
>>> >
>>> > "A lot of the safeguards that businesses and consumers take for granted
>>> > in their everyday interactions and payments don’t exist in bitcoin
>>> [...]"
>>> >
>>> > or
>>> >
>>> > "if your goal is to ensure widespread adoption of bitcoin, there needs
>>> > to be rules around its use, he says, arguing that it’s not good enough
>>> > to imagine bitcoin can exist above society."
>>> >
>>> > This doesn't sound like descriptions of systems that empower users to
>>> > self-regulate. This is the exact speech used behind many surveillance
>>> > and censorship tools to push them on us. Things like "anti-fraud"
>>> > blacklists or researching correlation techniques on consumer activity.
>>> >
>>> > If this tech is developed it will be deployed or pushed upon places
>>> like
>>> > Coinbase. Coinbase is the only business (or US?) in the valley with a
>>> > banking relationship which they have due to a special relationship with
>>> > JP Morgan and one of their bankers on their board.
>>> > And that's where these products that work against their users will come
>>> > into play. Maybe the industry doesn't have enough balls, and big
>>> Bitcoin
>>> > businesses with a large following (CoinBase, BitPay, ... whoever) start
>>> > "self-regulating" by spying, tracking and censoring their users.
>>> >
>>> > On 26/04/14 06:31, Peter Todd wrote:
>>> > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:37:11AM +0100, Amir Taaki wrote:
>>> > >> reducing the risk is newspeak for censorship
>>> > >>
>>> > >> protection against fraud is codeword for surveillance.
>>> > >
>>> > > Maybe it is; maybe it isn't.
>>> > >
>>> > > I hope Circle is just implementing all the decentralized technologies
>>> > > we've been talking about for ages that let people chose on their own
>>> > > terms how to reduce the risks involved in their transactions; best
>>> case
>>> > > is all this talk about moving Bitcoin away from its libertarian
>>> roots is
>>> > > just PR material. After all, Dark Market is an example of that
>>> approach,
>>> > > yet could also be marketted as "bringing Bitcoin into the mainstream
>>> > > with anti-fraud, lower costs, greater privacy safeguard, and
>>> protection
>>> > > against identity theft".
>>> > >
>>> > > I'm not very hopeful that's the case, but lets hold off on the
>>> torches
>>> > > and tar until they publish hard details on what exactly they are
>>> doing.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>> > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tomer Kantor
>>
>> Development|Production|Post
>> OneName - IamSatoshi <https://www.onename.io/iamsatoshi>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>
>>
>
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