Washington,


I see what you're saying and in that case DarkMarket isn't necessarily
suitable and this would be a great discussion to go into more detail once
we have the forum up. However, and I'll try and keep this brief, that
concept may be a bit utopian and I'll tell you why.

So, let's say hypothetically the open-source community works out all the
bugs and the software is rock-solid and unhackable. The TradeNet is
competing with well established companies with loyal venders and a pretty
hard-core customer base. Inherently the consumer doesn't like change
unless you give them a good reason. Such as, better price, superior
product, convenience, better customer service, etc... So let's say you're
the consumer and you want to buy a toaster, but you don't feel like going
to the store and you don't need it right now. So you go online, you have
several options: Ebay, Amazon, Overstock, Craigslist, BestBuy, Sears, and
the TradeNet. Let's say you already have your assets in bitcoin. So we
won't even factor in time to convert fiat to bitcoin. So you decide to buy
your toaster using bitcoin from TradeNet. It's maybe delivered a week
later. You plug it in and nothing happens. Now you have to contact the
vender, but the vender get's hundreds of emails, ships thousands of
products per week, they're just not able to respond to your defective
toaster problem. You have very little recourse. You can post negative
feedback, but you won't be able to get your money back. Ultimately, you've
wasted your time and money on a defective toaster and that's not even
malicious.

There are dozens of things that can go wrong in any E-commerce transaction.
For small, very common, purchases an open-market isn't the place to shop,
because the consumer needs to be protected. And even the big companies
deal with rampant fraud, but there is recourse if something goes wrong.
More and more businesses are starting to accept bitcoin. So you just have
to ask, what is the advantage of using TradeNet? No taxes, anonymity, and
it's unregulated. It's a market that really only makes sense for products
you can't purchase anywhere else. Now, that doesn't necessarily have to be
something nefarious. It could be legitimate medication that you don't have
access to or you can't afford without insurance. It could be an exotic
pet. It could be any number of things that are illegal, but not dangerous.
The point is a TradeNet just can't compete unless the risk is worth the
reward and no matter what you call it there is bound to be illicit
activity. So even if it's a big market for common goods it's highly
unlikely you'll get a positive story from the mainstream media, because
running a positive story is equivalent to advocating it's use. The
companies competing with the TradeNet are the same ones that advertise on
all the major networks. So it's actually in their best interest to run a
constant flow of negative stories about fraud, people buying drugs. All
the typical things they said about Silk Road and worse. The media is very
predictable when it comes to protecting their advertisement revenue. I
could go on and on, but I just don't see the appeal for the average
consumer or any legitimate vendor.

Therefore, go big or don't bother.


-Robert



On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:32 PM, John Hebert <johnalexhebert@???>wrote:

> Excellent question. When we get forum.unsystem.net up (*sigh* we are
> working on it), that would be a good topic for discussion.
>
> John
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Thomas Hartman <thomas@???
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm asking what happens when someone uses darkmarket (or just vanilla
>> bitcoin with tumbling for that matter, darkmarket just makes it easier) to
>> commit the perfect crime (bruce schneier's term).
>>
>> I think what will happen is there will be a backlash, and a price drop.
>>
>> I think this could actually be coordinated as a psy-op by people that
>> would like to see bitcoin fail, or possibly just want to drop the price so
>> they can buy some for cheap.
>>
>> I am raising this possibility, because I think it bears some thinking
>> about, because it is GOING to happen.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 2:16 PM, John Hebert <johnalexhebert@???>wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking what happens if someone
>>> uses Dark Market / Dark Wallet to "cheat" the bitcoin system?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Thomas Hartman <
>>> thomas@???> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BTW, I'm not taking a stand here.
>>>>
>>>> I'm literally asking, what happens. From a public relations standpoint,
>>>> if for no other reason.
>>>>
>>>> Because it seems to me a question of when, not if.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, alice could well be an agent of Circle in amir's evil
>>>> conspiracy scenario, or pick your adversary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Thomas Hartman <
>>>> thomas@???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What happens when alice doesn't free the baby?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://friedo.szm.com/krypto/AC/ch06/06-09.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:57 AM, John Hebert <
>>>>> johnalexhebert@???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please don't think of this as a personal attack, but using the term
>>>>>> "public relations" in relation to an UnSystem project shows a serious
>>>>>> misunderstanding of the basic principals of anarchism and libertarianism.
>>>>>> Bowing to public pressure for acceptance means you have already given up
>>>>>> the ideals behind the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll keep repeating this for those who want to rename "Dark Market"
>>>>>> to "Free Market": fork it, rename it, maintain it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No capitulation, no compromises.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Peter Todd <pete@???>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 03:25:40AM +0100, Amir Taaki wrote:
>>>>>>> > upvote this vid plz for visibility,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/23vo5s/petition_to_change_the_name_of_dark_market_to/ch1e6qb
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brilliant video.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, the suggestion to call it "Free Market" is clever enough
>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>> I'd seriously consider it. Unlike the bs around renaming "stealth
>>>>>>> addresses" "reusable addresses" the PR you could generate by doing so
>>>>>>> would probably be more than enough to make up for the confusion
>>>>>>> caused
>>>>>>> by the name-change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't make the mistake of getting too predictable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>>>>>>> 00000000000000003e4169d0cffdad1acd4a67ad9ec79786a53066511f305e72
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
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