I am starting to agree with Manfred that this could also be a marketplace,
in case people would like to buy other things than fiat for their BTC. If
these are sensitive things one could contemplate a system which is
compatible with I2P and/or TOR with the deliverable being delivered by
mail.

Best,
Mats-Erik


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:

> Here is the Open transactions solution for that what you have probably in
> mind:
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1elJotjR_t6OS1pV3duMEpWSGs/edit
>
> sounds very promising, powerful and complex. Ethereum could be another
> step in that direction.
> Those projects will deliver one day the features what we are used to get
> from centralized exchanges.
> My project is not inteded to go that far. It will be more limited but
> maybe more realistic to be ready for use in the near future.
>
> I think there is also a basic difference in the philosophy behind:
> You can try to eliminate the human involvements as much as possible or
> control it as strict as possible as humans are unreliable, corrupt and
> fault-prone (what a horrible view or ourself)
> OR you can try to create a setup (game design) to use the capacity and
> creativity of human actors to work for a common goal.
> That could lead to much easier systems, letting do the human actor the
> difficult part. Let space for self organisation and problem solutions on
> demand. Agile is one buzzword for that direction....
> If you set the right incentives it can work, but will be always an
> experiment and needs permanent adoption. See it as a living process.
>
> Companies like Valve (
> http://boingboing.net/2012/04/22/valve-employee-manual-describe.html) or
> Google seems to trust the humans to get to a common goal, other
> organisation like the military prefer to apply as much control as possible
> to reduce risks and limit the scope for errors.
> They also have different goals and maybe there is no general best solution
> for all needs.
>
> I think there are some interesting philosophical implications how we deal
> with that questions.
> Specially when the ideas of DAOs and the like will become more realistic
> with new tools.
>
> br,
> Manfred
>
>
> Am 19.02.2014 um 13:51 schrieb Benjamin Cordes <
> benjamin.l.cordes@???>:
>
> > I've studied exchanges and exchange software for 10 years.
> > unfortunately things are pretty complicated. I would suggest try and
> > code together an exchange first. you will then find you need
> > time-ordering. matching by hand?? well.... that gets you 1 transaction
> > per 10 minutes. how does one node even know about prices from the
> > other node? it doesn't. an exchange is nothing else than a price
> > generation machine based on order inputs.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:
> >> Have you read the paper?
> >>
> >> The project is like localbitcoin but without the company/single point
> of failure part. It is pure p2p. Any node has exactly the same
> rights/capabilities.
> >> Order matching is done by the people. Some publish an order, you
> recieve the orders you are interested in (filter) and accept any order you
> like in that list.
> >> Banks are only included in a private bank transfer between 2 private
> people. As long BTC is not illegal there is no justification to attack that
> (I know banks does not need a justification, but in large scale they would
> need, otherwise they lose their reputation). You dont hav one bank acount
> of localbitcoin or wikileaks, you have 1000s of individual ones and you
> have no proof that they do btc trades.
> >> Also it would be very hard to track those tx.
> >> The bank has to monitor all private bank accounts for tx which could
> match with the tx on the blockchain (impossible to do that without faults).
> That will produce more problems than it will helpt them to attack.
> >> If banks acts too costumer unfriendly they will loose them.
> >>
> >> br,
> >> Manfred
> >>
> >> Am 19.02.2014 um 13:16 schrieb Benjamin Cordes <
> benjamin.l.cordes@???>:
> >>
> >>> some good points here.
> >>>
> >>> * on the international level we have irreversible SWIFT, yes. but,
> >>> SWIFT is owned by an international regime. so its very unlike the
> >>> internet as a network. its an important tool for sanctions etc. you
> >>> can't just join the network. if you're very rich you might get a
> >>> license and join as a member. up to now the international financial
> >>> network and the internet evolved separately.
> >>>
> >>> * you also have the CLS group settling between fiat money. to trade
> >>> any type of money on the wire you need special accounts with banks or
> >>> central banks. quite a few big corporations have their own banks, but
> >>> usually you can't interface to their API's. large volume you can't do
> >>> by hand.
> >>>
> >>> * there are some attempts at combining financial networks and the
> >>> internet via credit cards. that's what eCommerce is largely using (
> >>> paypal is a separate case). stripe.com is an internet frontend for the
> >>> credit card network. but this network is owned by Visa/Mastercard and
> >>> used as a political tool as well. if you're Ku-Klux-Klan you're ok,
> >>> but not if you're a political activist the US has on a list.
> >>>
> >>> * if you do something like localbitcoins for fiat (you operate a small
> >>> exchange), you are going to get shutdown if you do any significant
> >>> volume. you have to comply with AML. as a maker of a market you match
> >>> buys and sells for other people. it is in fact illegal to exchange
> >>> things for other people, as you need a license. if you match them only
> >>> for yourself you have localbitcoins for that. bitcoin.de is very
> >>> similar (only that they take fees for I don't know what).
> >>>
> >>> * exchanges which are scattered are totally inefficient. there is just
> >>> no way to match orders not in a central point. what you can do is have
> >>> gateways to that central point, but centrality is what are exchanges
> >>> are about. imagine you have 100 exchanges - which one should I chose?
> >>> that with the lowest fees and highest throughput. the two are related.
> >>> high volume means little transaction cost. p2p exchange would mean
> >>> that everyone node operates an exchange. but 99/100 from those nodes
> >>> are uninteresting as they don't have volume. and if you do this over a
> >>> block-chain its even worse. p2p exchanges are failed projects and will
> >>> continue to fail. it really helps if you study auction systems. this
> >>> stuff looks trivial, but it is not. kind of like digital cash.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Am 19.02.2014 um 12:27 schrieb Benjamin Cordes <
> benjamin.l.cordes@???>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> the problem you have here is called the double spending problem.
> every
> >>>>> bank transaction is reversible. it clears through institutions called
> >>>>> central banks. banks and central banks interact through a complex
> >>>>> inter-banking network.
> >>>>
> >>>> You are right that there is no 100% protection agains a chargeback
> (in case of criminal involvement like stolen bank accounts), but there are
> diffent levels of hardness for the chargeback.
> >>>> Paypal is the worst and someothers are pretty safe with chargebacks
> (OKPay, Perfect Money, Bank wire,...)
> >>>>
> >>>> See also BTC wiki Money hardness:
> >>>> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_methods
> >>>>
> >>>> Also a user doing chargebacks frequently will get problems with his
> bank I assume. It means additional effort and make him suspicious.
> >>>> Reputation system can help as well against that attack class.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> so its quite easy for some authority to shut
> >>>>> down certain transactions, nodes,
> >>>>
> >>>> The tx is betweenn 2 privat people and has no visible conneection to
> a btc trade (there is no annotation on the bank tx like "BTC trade
> id:43535". people can write on it what they like...)
> >>>> There could be some data analysis including the analysing of the
> blockchain to match bank tx with btc trades, but that will produce many
> false positives and will be hard.
> >>>> As bank make it more difficult to use their services they will loose
> power as well. So it is not the best strategy for them...
> >>>> Also people could switch to mail, if it gets too cumbersome. Mail
> will not need much more time than a bank tx (what a joke...).
> >>>>
> >>>>> etc. in the underground people use
> >>>>> cash and money mules for rooting the banking world.
> >>>>> what big multi-nationals do is they circumvent rules by inventing
> >>>>> clever legal schemes, channeling money through offshore locations. so
> >>>>> the one strategy is illegal and can likely land you in jail, the
> other
> >>>>> strategy is legal and will let you earn applause for your cleverness.
> >>>>> its what accountants, bankers do all day long. if they are big enough
> >>>>> they just buy the laws they need.
> >>>>
> >>>> I dont see any legal issue.
> >>>> As long BTC itself is not illegal to do a private person to person
> trade without inclusion of any third party is not subject of any regulation.
> >>>> The tool does not take any fees or earn any money with the trades. So
> the tool providers (open source project, probably backed by a NGO) are not
> subject of any legal issues here as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For ATM's you need a banking license. which is why the mafia don't
> get
> >>>>> to operate their own ATM's for white washing their money. all of this
> >>>>> should be obvious enough, but there is little that surprises me in
> the
> >>>>> bitcoin world in terms of naivety of how the financial and economic
> >>>>> systems works.
> >>>>
> >>>> It does have nothing to do with ATMs or the like.
> >>>>
> >>>>> if you really want to operate such a system you are
> >>>>> moving in the underworld. the problem that every anarchist has, he is
> >>>>> on the same side of the criminal, gangster, terrorist, certainly in
> >>>>> the eyes of the power structure upholding "the rule of law". on the
> >>>>> other hand you have a different category of criminals running the
> >>>>> world in board rooms of cooperations and in parliament. the best
> thing
> >>>>> is to understand laws and use them to ones own advantage in every way
> >>>>> possible, to change political systems so that they work better. not
> to
> >>>>> ignore all institutions and be naive about it. they will not get you
> >>>>> very far.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not ignoring the legal framework. The he whole concept is
> designed to work inside that framework.
> >>>> There may be countries like russia where that is not possible.
> >>>> We will not recommend to use it there, that would be irresponsible as
> the threat of undercover agents is a real one in such circumstances.
> >>>> If our world is moving more in the direction that any private
> interaction gets suspicious we have to work hard on it to change that.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mats-Erik Pistol <
> meapistol@???> wrote:
> >>>>>> Manfred Karrer,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please include me in the upcoming forum/wiki also. I am highly
> interested in
> >>>>>> following how this pans out. I cannot contribute much, since I have
> a
> >>>>>> daytime job.
> >>>>>> However I think you should put more emphasis on sending the fiat in
> the mail
> >>>>>> and avoid bank transfers. The sender can then be anonymous and the
> problem
> >>>>>> of undercover agents more or less disappears. Another thought is
> that if
> >>>>>> trading btc becomes illegal in one country one should encourage
> >>>>>> international trading which induces competition between countries.
> >>>>>> Can you estimate how much funding is needed?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>> Mats-Erik Pistol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just created a project development thread
> >>>>>>> (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=465326.0) intended for
> open and
> >>>>>>> transparent communication for the development process.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If anybody interested to join/contribute to the project please
> join there,
> >>>>>>> so we can start working on it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I am in contact now with about 7 people so lets see how to get the
> thing
> >>>>>>> rolling...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Topics to discuss:
> >>>>>>> - Check the overall concept and test it there are open flaws
> >>>>>>> - Structure the development process
> >>>>>>> - Design the basic architecture
> >>>>>>> - Choose the technology to implement
> >>>>>>> - Funding models
> >>>>>>> - Organisational structure
> >>>>>>> - ...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As soon as we have agreed on a project name, I will register a
> domain and
> >>>>>>> we can setup our own forum/wiki,... there. The thread is just
> intended for a
> >>>>>>> first start....
> >>>>>>> I am working on an update for the paper to clearify and address
> some open
> >>>>>>> questions/issues.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> br,
> >>>>>>> Manfred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Am 14.02.2014 um 02:23 schrieb Washington Sanchez
> >>>>>>> <washington.sanchez@???>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> @Manfred:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Not on OT dev team, just working on the conceptual design of the
> >>>>>>> TradeNet/Bazaar. Will post my proposal soon.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> @Adam:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Unsystem forum?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> @Everyone:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> First name is Washington (drwasho), last name is Sanchez... don't
> mind
> >>>>>>> which of these you call me!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Adam Gibson <ekaggata@???>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sanchez, Manfred,
> >>>>>>>> This is what dansmith is doing now (integration of fiat transfer
> into
> >>>>>>>> OT).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Adam/waxwing on the forums.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 02/14/2014 07:58 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Sanchez!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Open Transaction I was not considering yet as an implementation
> >>>>>>>>> technology, but definitely worth to evaluate.
> >>>>>>>>> Until yet I was mostly focussed on the conceptional part.
> >>>>>>>>> Are you working with OT?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Am 14.02.2014 um 00:40 schrieb Washington Sanchez
> >>>>>>>>> <washington.sanchez@???>:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hey Manfred,
> >>>>>>>>>> First off, I want to give you sufficient kudos for taking the
> time and
> >>>>>>>>>> effort to think about this problem... we need more people like
> you tackling
> >>>>>>>>>> the big problems.
> >>>>>>>>>> It appears that most of this can be executed on top of Open
> >>>>>>>>>> Transactions... which I believe should be your approach here,
> rather than
> >>>>>>>>>> trying to reinvent the wheel.
> >>>>>>>>>> Open Transactions is fundamentally peer to peer, as in
> transactions
> >>>>>>>>>> between OT wallets is p2p as well as transactions between a
> wallet and
> >>>>>>>>>> Federated Server (which is necessary in the case of a central
> issuer)...
> >>>>>>>>>> combined with BitMessage (as you already discuss), you have a
> powerful
> >>>>>>>>>> combination of platforms to achieve your aims.
> >>>>>>>>>> The big problem at the moment is discovery of participants
> willing to
> >>>>>>>>>> perform this type of transaction, which is something that the
> OT dev team
> >>>>>>>>>> are working on (called the 'Bazaar')
> >>>>>>>>>> Here are a few resources RE the last point that should help:
> >>>>>>>>>> OT + BitMessage for p2p exchanges:
> >>>>>>>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0;all
> >>>>>>>>>> Lex Cryptographia (don't this miss one, it's a work of art and
> will
> >>>>>>>>>> give you ideas for reputation systems and managing
> counter-party risk in a
> >>>>>>>>>> near-trustless manner)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/lex-cryptographia.html
> >>>>>>>>>> - drwasho
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 4:51 AM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I have written a concept for a P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange.
> >>>>>>>>>> I am looking for developers so if you are interested, let me
> know!
> >>>>>>>>>> Otherwise any comment or review is highly appreciated!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> BANK RUN! - P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Basics:
> >>>>>>>>>> - Pure P2P, cannot shut down by a central authority, no 3rd
> party
> >>>>>>>>>> involved.
> >>>>>>>>>> - Collateral as warranty for fair behavior
> >>>>>>>>>> - Fiat money will be transferred from one users bank account to
> the
> >>>>>>>>>> others bank account without any intermediary party. No
> identification that
> >>>>>>>>>> the money transaction is connected to a BCT trade.
> >>>>>>>>>> - No fees beside the standard BTC transaction fees.
> >>>>>>>>>> - Open source
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Here is the paper:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d3EiWZdaM89-P6MVhS53unXv2-pDpSFsN3W4kCGXKgY
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> High-level overview of the protocol:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://nucleo.io/bankrun/flow/bankrun.png
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bitcointalk:
> >>>>>>>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=462236.0
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Reddit:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xsona/bank_run_p2p_fiatbitcoin_exchange/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> br,
> >>>>>>>>>> Manfred
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>> Dr Washington Y. Sanchez
> >>>>>>>>>> Post-doctoral research officer
> >>>>>>>>>> Therapeutics Research Centre
> >>>>>>>>>> University of Queensland
> >>>>>>>>>> Princess Alexandra Hospital
> >>>>>>>>>> Woollongabba, 4102
> >>>>>>>>>> Queensland, Australia
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> Dr Washington Y. Sanchez
> >>>>>>> Post-doctoral research officer
> >>>>>>> Therapeutics Research Centre
> >>>>>>> University of Queensland
> >>>>>>> Princess Alexandra Hospital
> >>>>>>> Woollongabba, 4102
> >>>>>>> Queensland, Australia
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> mvh,
> >>>>>> Mats-Erik
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>
>


--
mvh,
Mats-Erik