Hola Enric,

yes I support your point of view.
But I think for that kind of project there is no need to act outside the legal framework, and it makes all much more easy (also for the people involved with their real life name).

br,
Manfred

Am 19.02.2014 um 12:44 schrieb Enric Duran Giralt <enric@???>:

> There are a third strategy related to the
> legal / illegal debate
>
> This one is the "public disobedience" strategy and its to
> be ilegall but supported by communities and public opinion,
> This can be also combined with a big legal understanding
> to control and minimize the risks,
>
> Power can lose legitimacy if attacks us and a wave of solidarity for is
> generated. In this situation may prefer to ignore us
>
> We have a big experience about this third strategy,
> and we are making ilegal countereconomics,
> publically without problems. from years ago,
>
> we have done a handbook about this
> the economical disobediencia handbook
> http://www.derechoderebelion.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/MANUAL-DESOBEDIENCIA-ECONOMICA_pags1.pdf
> sorry its in spanish
>
> I think that this is a very important discusion for the bitcoin unsystem
> movement,
> because in the long term is how we become strong response to the attacks
> of the system without being part of it.
>
> cheers,
> Enric
>
>
> El 19/02/14 12:27, Benjamin Cordes escribió:
>>
>> For ATM's you need a banking license. which is why the mafia don't get
>> to operate their own ATM's for white washing their money. all of this
>> should be obvious enough, but there is little that surprises me in the
>> bitcoin world in terms of naivety of how the financial and economic
>> systems works. if you really want to operate such a system you are
>> moving in the underworld. the problem that every anarchist has, he is
>> on the same side of the criminal, gangster, terrorist, certainly in
>> the eyes of the power structure upholding "the rule of law". on the
>> other hand you have a different category of criminals running the
>> world in board rooms of cooperations and in parliament. the best thing
>> is to understand laws and use them to ones own advantage in every way
>> possible, to change political systems so that they work better. not to
>> ignore all institutions and be naive about it. they will not get you
>> very far.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mats-Erik Pistol <meapistol@???> wrote:
>>> Manfred Karrer,
>>>
>>> Please include me in the upcoming forum/wiki also. I am highly interested in
>>> following how this pans out. I cannot contribute much, since I have a
>>> daytime job.
>>> However I think you should put more emphasis on sending the fiat in the mail
>>> and avoid bank transfers. The sender can then be anonymous and the problem
>>> of undercover agents more or less disappears. Another thought is that if
>>> trading btc becomes illegal in one country one should encourage
>>> international trading which induces competition between countries.
>>> Can you estimate how much funding is needed?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Mats-Erik Pistol
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:
>>>> I just created a project development thread
>>>> (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=465326.0) intended for open and
>>>> transparent communication for the development process.
>>>>
>>>> If anybody interested to join/contribute to the project please join there,
>>>> so we can start working on it.
>>>>
>>>> I am in contact now with about 7 people so lets see how to get the thing
>>>> rolling...
>>>>
>>>> Topics to discuss:
>>>> - Check the overall concept and test it there are open flaws
>>>> - Structure the development process
>>>> - Design the basic architecture
>>>> - Choose the technology to implement
>>>> - Funding models
>>>> - Organisational structure
>>>> - ...
>>>>
>>>> As soon as we have agreed on a project name, I will register a domain and
>>>> we can setup our own forum/wiki,... there. The thread is just intended for a
>>>> first start....
>>>> I am working on an update for the paper to clearify and address some open
>>>> questions/issues.
>>>>
>>>> br,
>>>> Manfred
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 14.02.2014 um 02:23 schrieb Washington Sanchez
>>>> <washington.sanchez@???>:
>>>>
>>>> @Manfred:
>>>>
>>>> Not on OT dev team, just working on the conceptual design of the
>>>> TradeNet/Bazaar. Will post my proposal soon.
>>>>
>>>> @Adam:
>>>>
>>>> Unsystem forum?
>>>>
>>>> @Everyone:
>>>>
>>>> First name is Washington (drwasho), last name is Sanchez... don't mind
>>>> which of these you call me!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Adam Gibson <ekaggata@???> wrote:
>>>>> Sanchez, Manfred,
>>>>> This is what dansmith is doing now (integration of fiat transfer into
>>>>> OT).
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam/waxwing on the forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/14/2014 07:58 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks Sanchez!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Open Transaction I was not considering yet as an implementation
>>>>>> technology, but definitely worth to evaluate.
>>>>>> Until yet I was mostly focussed on the conceptional part.
>>>>>> Are you working with OT?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 14.02.2014 um 00:40 schrieb Washington Sanchez
>>>>>> <washington.sanchez@???>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Manfred,
>>>>>>> First off, I want to give you sufficient kudos for taking the time and
>>>>>>> effort to think about this problem... we need more people like you tackling
>>>>>>> the big problems.
>>>>>>> It appears that most of this can be executed on top of Open
>>>>>>> Transactions... which I believe should be your approach here, rather than
>>>>>>> trying to reinvent the wheel.
>>>>>>> Open Transactions is fundamentally peer to peer, as in transactions
>>>>>>> between OT wallets is p2p as well as transactions between a wallet and
>>>>>>> Federated Server (which is necessary in the case of a central issuer)...
>>>>>>> combined with BitMessage (as you already discuss), you have a powerful
>>>>>>> combination of platforms to achieve your aims.
>>>>>>> The big problem at the moment is discovery of participants willing to
>>>>>>> perform this type of transaction, which is something that the OT dev team
>>>>>>> are working on (called the 'Bazaar')
>>>>>>> Here are a few resources RE the last point that should help:
>>>>>>> OT + BitMessage for p2p exchanges:
>>>>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0;all
>>>>>>> Lex Cryptographia (don't this miss one, it's a work of art and will
>>>>>>> give you ideas for reputation systems and managing counter-party risk in a
>>>>>>> near-trustless manner)
>>>>>>> http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/lex-cryptographia.html
>>>>>>> - drwasho
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 4:51 AM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have written a concept for a P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange.
>>>>>>> I am looking for developers so if you are interested, let me know!
>>>>>>> Otherwise any comment or review is highly appreciated!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BANK RUN! - P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Basics:
>>>>>>> - Pure P2P, cannot shut down by a central authority, no 3rd party
>>>>>>> involved.
>>>>>>> - Collateral as warranty for fair behavior
>>>>>>> - Fiat money will be transferred from one users bank account to the
>>>>>>> others bank account without any intermediary party. No identification that
>>>>>>> the money transaction is connected to a BCT trade.
>>>>>>> - No fees beside the standard BTC transaction fees.
>>>>>>> - Open source
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is the paper:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d3EiWZdaM89-P6MVhS53unXv2-pDpSFsN3W4kCGXKgY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> High-level overview of the protocol:
>>>>>>> http://nucleo.io/bankrun/flow/bankrun.png
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bitcointalk:
>>>>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=462236.0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reddit:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xsona/bank_run_p2p_fiatbitcoin_exchange/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> br,
>>>>>>> Manfred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Dr Washington Y. Sanchez
>>>>>>> Post-doctoral research officer
>>>>>>> Therapeutics Research Centre
>>>>>>> University of Queensland
>>>>>>> Princess Alexandra Hospital
>>>>>>> Woollongabba, 4102
>>>>>>> Queensland, Australia
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> Dr Washington Y. Sanchez
>>>> Post-doctoral research officer
>>>> Therapeutics Research Centre
>>>> University of Queensland
>>>> Princess Alexandra Hospital
>>>> Woollongabba, 4102
>>>> Queensland, Australia
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mvh,
>>> Mats-Erik
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>
>
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