By the way, why bother to do a crypto currency with a guaranteed
minimum income, rather than take the (sort of) easy way out and lobby your
democratically elected government to do the same?

Well, national GMI like proposed by switzerland sounds good.

In practice however, I think there are pressures on a democratic
government with a fiat printing press. Over the long term they will
inflate so they can keep the GMI going and the population complacent
and with food and shelter and wifi, but the income will grind down by
inflation; and the mechanisms to measure inflation will be gamed by
the bureaucrats.

Reason number two, with a crypto coin you don't have to lobby your
government. You just do it, and see who joins your scheme.
Like with bitcoin but... fairer. But maybe not completely fair. Like,
you could still privilege early adopters, or better still privilege
people who register a lot of genuine identiites into the scheme.
Recruiters could get a bigger piece of the income pie, but still
constrained to (say) 20x the lowest income.

I actually think crypto currencies could maybe do better than fiat in
the long haul, even when it comes to redistribution.

I am talking decades in the future, of course. And this is highly
speculative thought experiment.

But yes, coin with a census and enforced gini coefficient over a human
population. I rather like it.

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Thomas Hartman
<thomas@???> wrote:
> Freicoin demurrage is a gesture in the right direction when it comes
> to coins with a progressive economic policy, but in practice it still
> works out to wealth concentration for the early miners; and I think
> you can avoid demurrage by just sending coins to yourself.
>
> I have a conversation going on with friends brainstorming about crypto
> coins that have an actual workable notion of economic policy, such as
> (for instance) a guaranteed minimum income.
>
> The challenge there is you're no longer keeping track of addresses,
> which is easy for a computer to do. You need to map addresses to
> people, which only a human can do. So now you have to accept a certain
> degree of centralization. That being said, I think there could still
> be ways to do this, and keep many of the advantages of crypto currency
> -- the big ones being low cost of administration and deterministically
> fair economic policy.
>
> Early on in your little utopian scheme, someone will start registering
> multiple "humans" so they can collect multiple guaranteed minimum
> income payments. This happens in the real world, where we have for
> instance massive unemployment and health care fraud in the USA.
>
> When you are running a guaranteed minimum income scheme, you need to
> prevent cheating. So maybe everyone signs their main address with a
> hash of their DNA, which any notary with the right PCR machinery and a
> sample of your saliva can verify. Now you need to prevent cheating by
> notaries. But you could notice this by spot checking that no notary is
> registering sock puppets. Perhaps as long as the cheating is
> constrained to some small level, the system could work.
>
> TLDR, to prevent cheating, you need a crypto census. You need crypto
> census takers, crypto notaries... crypto id cards.
>
> To run such a system, you would need essentially the opposite of darkwallet.
>
> I am very interested in this space in case anybody has more ideas.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Manfred Karrer <mk@???> wrote:
>> Do we really want a world where every human interaction is measured in currency?
>> I prefer to receive a nice gesture from somebody knowing that he/she do it without any economic incentive in mind.
>> Maybe its better to think in a direction where any form of money gets less important rather then make all parts of our life part of a money system.
>> Basic income like we have it already partially in some european countries could be a way to get there.
>> Imagine if every citizen gets 1500 USD per month for free. Many people would have more time for social interaction and there would be less need for a lot of work now done by professionals because that time is missing (care for elderly or sick people, child care, education,…)
>> In switzerland there is a citizens' initiative (http://www.grundeinkommen.ch) for that and in some other countries in EU there is discussion about that topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 14.01.2014 um 04:19 schrieb Ruben Brito <urbenz@???>:
>>
>>> Jason, I thought of something similar, but with other types of community
>>> centered efforts added on. Like cleaning trash from a park, helping the
>>> elderly with groceries, or donating literature to a library all earn your
>>> currency from the DAC. I am about to write a story about this in Bitcoin
>>> Mag as there is already a company executing a fragment of this sort of
>>> altruistic currency "mining". The benefits are very clear in that people
>>> get exercise and can partner up in "pools" to earn more currency. It would
>>> be ideal if it supported bounties as well.
>>>
>>> Ruben
>>>
>>> Freelance Writer for Bitcoin Magazine<http://bitcoinmagazine.com/author/ruben/>
>>> Portfolio <http://www.behance.net/urbenz>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:38 PM, chiseeds <chiseeds@???> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>> unfortunately we (solene & pierre) haven't got any video of your
>>>> conversations .
>>>> hopefully you will find what you looking for.
>>>> impatient to hear more of your idea. sounds to gather greats concepts, for
>>>> great purpose. well done.
>>>>
>>>> Solene
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14/01/2014 00:27, Jason King wrote:
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> On Jan 13, 2014 5:19 PM, "d3" <d3@???> <d3@???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Great idea Jason!
>>>>>
>>>>> D3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/01/14 23:22, Jason King wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been losing much sleep over tinkering with the ideas of DAC's
>>>>>>>> for charitable and humanitarian uses. I'm calling the concept a
>>>>>>>> S.R.H.E (pronounced like HOORAY! with an S) Self Replicating
>>>>>>>> Humanity Engines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very basic concept is an individual sustainable system or "engine"
>>>>>>>> in which a quotient of "good" is produced along with a surplus of
>>>>>>>> value that can be used towards the creation of another "engine". An
>>>>>>>> example would be a sustainable farm that A) Feeds the Homeless B)
>>>>>>>> Sustains itself C) Produces a bumper crop that can be sold for
>>>>>>>> surplus revenue and eventually used to fund the creation of another
>>>>>>>> SRHE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm a long way from anything good on this. But it has captured a
>>>>>>>> huge portion of my mental bandwidth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I had a question, this rabbit hole spawned from a series of
>>>>>>>> conversations Mihai and I had in Milan. I seem to remember one of
>>>>>>>> our rants being video taped. Is there any possibility that I might
>>>>>>>> get a copy of that footage if it exists?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
>>>>>>>> list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>
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