Hi Eric yes I realise that some people may be subjective at times. But is
that necessarily such a bad thing? As for the amount of time spent here,
that's just the community's dedication to open source. I often help other
Linux users elsewhere on other forums (I don't use a wannabe whiz-kid handle
or anything like that), and I'm sympathetic to the original purpose of
Rastasoft Dynebolic, so I don't resent taking the time out to assist with
moving the Dyne project forward because for many of us it's not about ego
and personal aggrandisement.

Unfortunately these meaningless buzzwords (that's "keywords" for the
rentabilly crowd) such as "community", "free as in free and free", etc. can
create their own type of mind-controlled zombie type of Follower, who is
actually a True Believer (not a good thing) in Open Source. These types of
people just react to any criticism as an "attack", because they perpetuate
and live in a paranoid world in which Linux and free software are under
constant threat of capitalism, free enterprise, GW Bush, the Illuminati and
God-knows-what.

So no matter how flawed the Open Source software in question is, when
someone comes along out of the blue and points out its deficiencies and how
they can be improved, it's seen as an attack on their very way of life and
the religious certainties they have forged, instead of just the
suggestions/feedback box. Perhaps I really am an agent sent here by
Microsoft in a conspiracy to make one particular "whizz-kid" have doubts
about the very software he PRETENDS to be able to use, at the altar of
"software as a work of art". Of course this observation doesn't apply to the
rest of the users on this mailinglist here who have all been mature and
reasonable participants in this discussion.

But yes, if there's software being made for me then I will offer suggestions
and my opinions about it because I am the customer, and I would encourage
others to do the same.

Generally, I think it's a good suggestion that Dyne should come with no
pre-loaded apps at all, so users can choose ALL their apps from a central
online repository. Customisability is a high value: while many users may be
happier if I was tasked with what to include or leave out. Naturally,
PureData is going to go one way or the other. It takes 30 seconds to burn
the CD-R, and they're getting cheaper all the time, so being fashionable
right now is unlikely to be any indication of the future viability of any
software application.

Regards,

Max

On 3/24/07, Eric Tucker <hugafish8@???> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> I have to admit this is sometimes a cool mailing list and sometimes I look
> at a ton of them including my own and say wow these things are fun but boy
> did I waste a lot of time here wow what time is it already! but It is good
> to voice your opinions for sure but remember, things no matter how much you
> buy into your own thinking sometimes have a bit of subjectiveness built into
> them. I think I read an email earlier written by one of the leaders of the
> Dyne project and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that he said he was
> planning on offering Dyne as a shell in future release and just have
> everything else as optional Dyne Modules. I think this would be a great
> thing to do. Just pop in what you like and intend to use, maybe keep
> essentional things coherent in the shell of the Dyne thing like alsa , Jack
> etc. This way those of you who like rosegarden can just pop it in as a Dyne
> Mod and I can't wait to actually give that rosegarden thing a try someday.
> It would be nice to have
> more people build such mods for more variety, a great project for those
> coders amungst us. Dyne stuff doesn't have to be done by Dyne people. Oh
> just wanted to ask if any of you guys or gals out there heard of anything
> linux based equivelent to the GW magazine's the tones behind the tunes for
> the digitech hardware setup. What I would like to do is turn a laptop into
> nothing but a guitar effects processor that would match the digitech
> hardware and use those preset guides to program in say via mysql this way I
> could call up any song and have it preset the effects according to that
> songs actual sound device settings for real time play back with my guitar.
> Just a silly idea I was wondering about.
>
> Thanks
> Eric
>
>
>
> Deepak Mishra <xask.linus@???> wrote: You need a blog Maxam where
> you can vent out your frustrations
> If you do not like PureDyne just leave it alone
>
> Is it not enough that some one bothered to think for the community ?
> Applications like Blender and POV RAY take years of hard work to build,
> making them work is an art in its own right. You have to use blender to
> realise the benefits of its UI, making a non standard UI takes more of a
> developers time than making a clone of the similar Windows app. In any
> case
> the open source nature of Blender allows people to have its interface
> changed and I am sure you wouldn't be able to do that and continue to feel
> irritated. There is no point in making UI more 'lay' user friendly when it
> can be made mroe designer friendly and productive.
> People at blender at blender cant please all.
> Perhaps instead of your insulting tone you could have adopted a positive
> approach, and politely pointed out the things you dislike.
>
> If you cant use and appreciate good software its your fault.
> People who need and appreciate blender are already doing so , filling and
> not complaining like you on a mailing list.
> Recently a movie was made using blender available at
> http://www.elephantsdream.org/ , they didn't have to complain.
>
> Software like blender and pure data are creations of art, and are
> definitely
> a step forward in the right direction. The open source phenomenon will
> bring
> out the best just as it brought out dynebolic.
>
> May the good sense prevail on you
>
> Xask wuz here
>
>
> On 24/03/07, Maxam CPC wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Yes I can see how some users might have some use for one of the
> specialist
> > software applications. But Blender doesn't make PureDyne special at all:
> > you
> > can have it for any distro. If you can use Blender, compiling it from
> > source
> > is hardly going to be an intellectual challenge!
> >

> > Anyway, it's interesting that you don't use Blender AND PureData. I'm
> > waiting for that super-talented PureDyne user, that claims to use them
> > both,
> > plus uses Blender's scripting ability with Python! :)             (And
> > then
> > of course I'll ask to see their work for evidence..) Sorry, but if you
> > check
> > with the Blender forums you'll find out that making a couple of 3d
> models
> > after a couple of hours use of Blender just makes you a n00b. But it
> will
> > make you look cooler in front of friends, than learning something like C
> > programming which may be a lot more useful in the long run.

> >
> > No, I think Blender's usefulness gets talked up a lot everywhere among
> > open
> > source astroturfers, but I see very little evidence of any widespread
> > productivity with this. Compare it with Windows users of Poser. There
> are
> > millions of them and there is actually a very valuable market for Poser
> > modules. There is no comparison at all, between Windows or Mac software
> > for
> > 3D, and this Blender. The Nordic guys who wrote Blender are famous for
> > trying to make their app NOT user friendly - makes them see more
> talented
> > because that's their background (demoscene). I have no interest in
> > massaging
> > their ego by learning their software, and can't understand anyone who
> > does.
> >
> > So yes, you say you can use Blender and I respect you may have at some
> > point
> > worked through a few chapters of one of the many manuals for one of the
> > many
> > versions. But this doesn't make you look cool to me, that you chose to
> use
> > this software or any other software. The finished work is judged, not
> your
> > choice of software. Do you see what I'm getting at with this? This
> > software
> > you say is "heavy" because you found it difficult to learn. So there is
> no
> > basis for advocacy of its use unless you enjoy proving your leetness to
> 12
> > year olds on internet forums. I mean seriously, to an artist doing 3D
> > modelling with plasticene is a better demonstrating of talent and your
> > leetness among other artists than going around saying you learnt how to
> > use
> > plasticene (which of course a 2 or 3 year old can also boast about).
> >
> > So yes, it appears we agree that Blender is a bit "heavy". Is there
> anyone
> > who found it easy to learn and use? Otherwise we might as well agree
> that
> > POV-Ray is a killer app fit for all purposes, and let's all pretend to
> be
> > 1337 to be able to use that to make stunning 3D visuals to a killer
> music
> > background generated by a custom-made PureData modular environment.
> Nobody
> > will care what you used to make it with.. only whether the finished work
> > demonstrates artistic or musical talent. Because out of millions who try
> > modelling plasticene, one of them might be Michelangelo, and
> statistically
> > that it less likely to be the case, with the much smaller userbase of
> > Blender than plasticene. I mean, sorry guys, I went to school and uni
> and
> > got my certificates, and now what matters to me is not more credo but
> the
> > quality of finished works (will they survive as art into the future -
> will
> > they give me my immortality?). To that end, the idea of Dynebolic was to
> > empower people without access to the latest tech a microphone and a
> > soap-box.
> >
> > In 10, 15 years the 3D stuff will look amazing compared to what you can
> do
> > with Blender and POV-Ray right now, because technology will improve. But
> > that's not the point to Dyne, is it? Isn't the point about giving people
> > accessibility to self-expression?
> >
> > As for the PureData, the technology for music production no matter how
> far
> > it advances will not help anyone who doesn't have talent. This is why I
> > keep
> > saying you should consult at KVR audio - the musicians really need an
> > unobtrusive, easy-to-use very powerful all-in-one DAW. The music has its
> > own
> > formal theory, and has been handed down from ancient civilisations and
> > before. It will not get any better by putting more barriers in the way
> of
> > inspiration (which comes very fast and which can't be held in the mind
> and
> > processed with rational abstract thought such as required to model an
> OOP
> > program just to capture what's in the wind). It just doesn't work like
> > that.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Maxam
> >
> > On 3/24/07, MilkaJinka wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > > The other big waste of space for most users but not all, is Blender
> > for
> > > > 3d.
> > > > 3D experts can use Blender, but this is only after a lot of study.
> > > Nobody
> > > > else has any use for it and it seems to be thrown in anyway, with
> the
> > > > attitude that if you can't use it you must be a dumbass/luser
> > > (interesting
> > > > to know who could use PureData AND Blender). PureData and Blender
> were
> > > > both
> > > > developed by people with specific needs, and have evolved over time.
> > > Those
> > > > people who were with it at the beginning obviously find it a piece
> of
> > > cake
> > > > to use them. Others are lusers or people looking for a Linux-based
> > > > challenge
> > > > (for whom the actual multimedia work itself is not a top priority).
> > >
> > > I have to disagree. Blender _is_ useful because one can do about
> > > everything with it in the 3D area (modelling, animation, editing,
> > > compositing...), and you can get started in a couple of hour for the
> > > basics (I knew it, I and a dozen of friends have done it ;-) ). The
> > > all-in-one killer app (not an elitist tool for specific needs), but
> > yeah,
> > > you're right, it's _heavy_, especially for a distro aimed at being
> able
> > to
> > > run on old computers.
> > >
> > > The same can be said about Cinelerra : it's heavy, ressources-angry
> and
> > > not too easy to learn, but hey, it's THE tool for video editing under
> > > Linux.
> > >
> > > Well, using POV-Ray it's possible to make 3D modelling with text-files
> > > only and a very weak system, but THAT is as elitist as PureData :-D
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > MilkaJinka
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > dynebolic mailing list
> > > dynebolic@???
> > > http://lists.dyne.org/mailman/listinfo/dynebolic
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > dynebolic mailing list
> > dynebolic@???
> > http://lists.dyne.org/mailman/listinfo/dynebolic
> >
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