hey all!
> On 05 Jul 2008, at 23:50, Matt Ratto wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Rob van Kranenburg
>> <kranenbu@???> wrote:
>> snip...
>>> Globally this would mean to describe the
>>> generic infrastructures we would need to live everyday lives and
>>> then
>>> simply...make them :)
>> and develop and extend the critical expertise necessary to
>> continually
>> remake them in ways that are culturally, humanly, and environmentally
>> sensitive and sustainable. I think this is the real tough part - what
I totally agree with that Marc!
This could be termed "integrated continual critique and improvement"
Is it very common to see people with at the same time a critical
position and proposing alternatives?
To me, it feels like having an excellent idea and no capability to
make it, it's just not sufficient. Same for the other way around.
It's definitely some place i'd love to see more academic and
practical research... Open Organizations could be a way maybe?
>> do we and the rest of the proles need to know in order to opt out of
>> current fetishistic systems? How to we teach and learn this
>> knowledge?
>> Personally I think it does come down to making, but needs to be a
>> reflexive and knowing kind of making...
Generations? Like DNA for projects / structures / companies?
Like incremental creation with balanced / dialogue based improvements?
It's actually the role of any sound relationship ecosystem. Sometime
some people call it a "sane" environment, like not toxic.
One problems is that working grassroot (non-multimillion commercial
ventures) projects are "done" and very often not "thought about"
which attract more makers, less thinkers. Thinkers perceived as non-
pragmatic pain in the XXX.
Then there are ideal projects which are very good, but never take off.
Alternating both could be a solution?
Maybe an even better model would be a process where makers take time
to show how easy it is to make to the thinkers, and thinkers show how
doable it is to think and refactor to the makers? In an alternating
fashion once again.
Easy to say, hard to setup. But when you see skilled builders do
thing, it IS easy because they take a simple no-nonsense way, with
working best practices. When you listen to a skilled scientist /
conceptual artist / philosoph / writer, their ideas ARE simple and
well articulated and logical. So that should be doable? ;-)
>>
>> Matt
>>
On 05 Jul 2008, at 21:17, Rob van Kranenburg wrote:
> yes i think both tracks can be followed. It is true, as Philippe says
> that the internet as tcp/ip is a fluke, it would never have been
> around
> had corporate interests been involved. We would have had a Philips web
> in parts of Europe, a Sony web in Japan...This is exactly what GS1 and
> EPC find, up against making the protocol for the Internet of Things,
> that that is not easy when everyone involved knows what is at stake.
> China, for example is rolling out its own RFID infrastructure.,
> talking
Do you have pointers / URL to tech infos about this?
> One of the things I have been doing in past years is setting up a
> space
> in which both GS1 Holland, EPC Global and RFID pushers are in with the
> teachers from the students of Nijmegen who hacked/cloned the Ov card,
> designers, and government sponsored bodies who care about privacy. It
> may lead to opening up the infrastructure alongside the principles of
> Melanie Riebacks RFID Guardian (also in that DIFR network),
> http://www.rfidguardian.org/index.php/Main_Page
> it may not.
I have mixed feelings here, because it can also help the industry
"secure" the new emerging experts into shared-interests that they
perfectly know how to create...
OTOH, we have to assume good will to be positive.
Maybe the interesting, balanced position is the one that assume good
wills but is vigilant as to see if the industry is not "buying out"
the whistle-blowers or other dirty techniques.
The /tmp/lab like many hacker labs is something like this, maybe we
should now start inviting french and european politics to exchange
there.
> Probably what I may have done during those years is making
> industry a lot wiser. These are the discussions I had with Katherine
I hope
> Albrecht (spychips.com) who was very angry that we went talking and
> creating comfort zones with industry - instead of rallying in the
> streets as if we could stop it. However, I see that ship coming in and
> there is no stopping it. I hope through initiatives like this to buy
> some time, divert and create open spaces to discuss an open source
> rfid
> infrastructure that starts from agency from citizens ( in their terms:
> consumers).
Indeed, it seems to me that transdisciplinary forums are lacking.
When they are created, did someone else spot that they are aging very
badly? (i.e. like people who do not contribute interesting ideas but
trolls and also lots of "informed people with actually no creations /
substantial work in their track record?)
> But I agree with Pajé, we should also look past these protocols of
> vested interests whichever way they turn out. That means taking our
> own
> scenarios seriously. My 'end of the Netherlands' story, predicting
> breakdown in European states because the middle class will pull the
> plug, demanding better service for its 40% taxes to an empty state
> that
> is dressed in Emperors clothes (money and law from EU, sold all
> services) is getting lots of attention from Dutch policy makers. They
> get itchy. There is just something funny in the air. Votes swing in
> months, people are fed up with politicians. So why not bet on that
> breakdown and take that as a framework for projects in the coming five
> years?
Aren't things hard to get born and hard to die?
Each time i hear "this tech is dead", like CDs or even tape or vinyl,
i see it outliving many expectation.
Wouldn't be the same thing with structural political forms?
> That would mean betting to opening up scenarios in other parts of
> the world where bricos are. Globally this would mean to describe the
> generic infrastructures we would need to live everyday lives and then
> simply...make them :)
actually, the middle path is certainly my wished way:
make things that work now
but could outlive the current set of societal patterns that i don't
find really positive.
>> well, i think there is a bit of misconception about the idea of
>> "freedom" on the internet. First of all, the early discussions
>> about
>> the internet were about State or Market domain. So the wining point
>> was that one named as "libertarian - mcluhanism" (barbrook). So i
>> think it's wrong to think that the liquid, flowting, controls of the
>> marked never does it's movements concearning a restriction and
>> control
>> over these architeture. That freedom was always the liberal freedom
>> from the nineties, the democracy ideology, and the market forms of
>> relation.
>>
>> But most important is to think that this "freendom" was always more
>> consented than conquested. This is the idea of the servo pradrone,
>> where the given ideology make it's domination mainly be the passive
>> agreement of the dominated groups.
>> My point is that there is a new form of domination, that has nothing
>> to deal with the disciplinary domination, as the State or other
>> previous and already known institutions were used to do. And the
>> develompent of this domination it's much larger than the internet
>> governance.
>>
>> There is not a "Internet Dilema" apart from a technological dilema.
>> And the concept of "soviet" do not seem to me the better term to
>> ilustrate the kind of control the new corporations and thecnological
>> power push into our relations. If it were like this, it would be easy
>> for us to stand against.
>>
>> The new project in brasilian senate (see felipe fonseca's last mail)
>> show the ignorance of the political class, but are more related to
>> the
>> pressure and fear concearning the use of new technology, and to me ,
>> their fear is almost useless, because we are not discussing the main
>> subject, that is, for me, the hole economic and cultural logic we are
>> thinking and criticizing, but without being able to see beyond our
>> immediately needs.
>>
>> kisses and beijos,
>>
>> pajé
>>
>> 2008/7/5 Philippe Langlois <Philippe.Langlois@???
>> <mailto:Philippe.Langlois@???>>:
>>
>> During HSF, we spoke a bit (not enough maybe) on how the film/
>> media
>> industry is now lobbying to make the internet become some giant
>> commercial machine monitored and ruled by commercial powers.
>>
>> Benjamin is doing great work at FFII, I don't know if you
>> heard about
>> this so i'm fwd'ing this message from the important mailing
>> list FFII.
>>
>> One remark I made is that I believe Internet would never have
>> worked
>> if these media industry people enforced their control on it from
>> day 1.
>> Can the politics be aware of such?
>> Can Bricolabs mailing list actually flex that muscle and
>> spread the
>> word to people who may help in not going into a Dirtyternet?
>>
>> Love,
>> Phil.
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> From: Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion@???
>> <mailto:bhenrion@???>>
>>> Date: Fri 4 Jul 2008 20:25:35 CEDT
>>> To: news@??? <mailto:news@???>
>>> Subject: [ffii] European Parliament rushes towards Soviet Internet
>>>
>>> PRESS RELEASE -- [ Europe / Economy / Innovation ]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>> European Parliament rushes towards Soviet Internet
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>> Brussels, 04 July 2008 -- Amendments to the European
>>> Telecommunications
>>> directive being rushed through the European Parliament propose a
>>> "Soviet
>>> internet" where software publishers and internet service providers
>>> watch
>>> traffic and data for Hollywood. Software and services that run
>> on the
>>> internet would have to ask for permission of the regulators.
>>>
>>> Some amendments to the European Telecommunications directive allow
>>> administrative authorities in each Member State to define which are
>>> the
>>> authorised software applications for the internet. Parts of the
>>> directive should be implemented by the member states through
>> requiring
>>> specific "technical features" in electronic communications networks.
>>> Live-analysis and filtering compose a pre-requisite for a "Soviet
>>> style"
>>> censorship environment.
>>>
>>> Several committees suggested massive changes to an over complex
>>> Commission proposal. The committee process was hijacked by vested
>>> interests. All amendments of at times questionable quality lack a
>>> legal
>>> impact analysis and sufficient examination. Immature
>> propositions risk
>>> to create an administrative burden and stifle internet innovation.
>>> Overloaded and confused by hundreds of amendments the lobby sets
>> MEPs
>>> under pressure to agree on a poor compromise before the summer
>> break.
>>> All amendments need more thoughtful review so that a mature text
>>> may be
>>> presented to the plenary and MEPs fully understand what they cast
>>> their
>>> vote on in the committee.
>>>
>>> Benjamin Henrion, FFII representative in Brussels, rings the alarm
>>> bell:
>>> "Tomorrow, popular software applications like Skype or even Firefox
>>> might be declared illegal in Europe if they are not certified by an
>>> administrative authority. This is compromising the whole open
>>> development of the internet as we know it today. Once the Soviet
>> Union
>>> required the registration of all typewriters and printing
>> devices with
>>> the authorities."
>>>
>>> Privacy expert Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes comments: "In Germany
>>> Deutsche Telekom is under fierce criticism for alleged spying on
>>> citizens and journalists. In Europe the amendments want to make
>>> spying a
>>> natural obligation for communications providers. The planned
>>> infrastructure of live-analysis and filtering can be used for
>>> mass-surveillance and censorship."
>>>
>>> FFII President Alberto Barrionuevo adds: "The agenda to establish a
>>> Chinese internet wall in Europe is set by few ultra-copyright
>>> lobbyists.
>>> I don't agree to justify their intentions to spy us with the
>>> protection
>>> of copyright. It sets a precedent for market control: regulating
>> large
>>> parts of internet communication, provider contracts, software
>>> development and thus internet businesses. The proposed
>> environment is
>>> threatening all European businesses which need protection from
>>> business
>>> espionage, and be able to use secure virtual private networks (VPNs)
>>> over the internet."
>>>
>>> The FFII therefore asks the Members of the European Parliament
>> to take
>>> more time and reconsider thoughtfully the Telecommunications
>>> proposal as
>>> prepared for voting. Over 300 amendments and fundamental concerns on
>>> different issues, such as free speech, censorship, net
>> neutrality and
>>> trade secrets should be reviewed with greater care. The debate
>> on the
>>> European Telecommunications directives requires more reflection,
>> if it
>>> should lead to a reliable and solid legal base.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>> Background Information
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>> An Article 2 Compromise Amendment (by British conservative Seyd
>> Kamal
>>> MEP) that changes Directive 2002/58/EC Article 14 says on
>> paragraph 2:
>>>
>>> "Where provisions of this Directive can be implemented only by
>>> requiring specific technical features in electronic communications
>>> networks, Member States shall inform the Commission in accordance
>>> with
>>> the procedure provided for by Directive 98/34/EC of the European
>>> Parliament and of the Council of 22 June 1998 laying down a
>>> procedure
>>> for the provision of information in the field of technical
>> standards
>>> and regulations and of rules on information society services."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>> Links
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>> * ITRE-IMCO compromise amendments:
>>> http://www.laquadrature.net/files/amendements-compromis_ITRE-
>>> IMCO_7juil/
>>>
>>> * Permanent link to this press release:
>>> http://press.ffii.org/Press_releases/
>>> European_Parliament_rushes_towards_Soviet_Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>> Contact
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>> Benjamin Henrion
>>> FFII Brussels
>>> +32-2-414 84 03
>>> +32-484-566109
>>> bhenrion@??? <mailto:bhenrion@???>
>>> (French/English)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>> About the FFII
>>>
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>> The FFII is a not-for-profit association active in over fifty
>>> countries,
>>> dedicated to the development of information goods for the public
>>> benefit, based on copyright, free competition, and open standards.
>>> More
>>> than 850 members, 3,500 companies and 100,000 supporters have
>>> entrusted
>>> the FFII to act as their voice in public policy questions concerning
>>> exclusion rights (intellectual property) in data processing.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FFII Press Releases.
>>> (un)subscribe via https://lists.ffii.org/mailman/listinfo/news, or
>>> contact media@??? <mailto:media@???> for more information.
>>>
>>
>> Philippe Langlois
>> Email: Philippe.Langlois@???
>> PGP Key: 8DAEE244
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Philippe Langlois
>> Email: Philippe.Langlois@???
>> <mailto:Philippe.Langlois@???>
>> PGP Key: 8DAEE244
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> * Linux registered user # 402094
>> * faça e pense rádio livre
>> * leia guimarães rosa, mario quintana e patativa do assaré
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>
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> _______________________________________________
> Brico mailing list
> Brico@???
> http://lists.dyne.org/mailman/listinfo/brico
Philippe Langlois
Email: Philippe.Langlois@???
PGP Key: 8DAEE244
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